The Real Mary Kelly - Wynne Weston-Davies

[Big Jon]

Just finished this.

First thoughts:

The potentially interesting genealogical bits are hardly looked at and completely unreferenced and the book turns to typical "Hunt the Ripper" conjecture (some of it- particularly chapter 22 - is quite bizarre).

Positives - there are some interesting observations on anatomy and medical evidence.

[Howard Brown]

Chapter 22 is bizarre, Jon....thanks for pointing it out.

[Lynn Cates]

Got the right one, baby?

Hello Jon. Anything tangible that she is the right one?

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Jon. Anything tangible that she is the right one?

Personally, Lynn, I must admit that I've seen nothing too convincing so far. I'll give it a chance, though - I'm over halfway through.

[Big Jon]

Hello Jon. Anything tangible that she is the right one?

Cheers.
LC

Nothing verifiable. Though I hear on the podcast episode he's a bit more forthcoming, not had chance to listen yet.

[Anna Morris]

My opinion is there are many oddities in the MJK case. As I ask myself questions to research I will also consider EWD but I am not convinced she is MJK. The time frame of activities is really tight and if EWD was thirty something in 1888, like I noted on another thread recently, her back story is somewhat restricted. For instance she never told Barnett about being in service though if she was EWD that would have had deep influence on her manners, behaviour, use of words, interest, etc. IMO.

On the other hand it seemed like there was pressure to wrap up the MJK inquest. Perhaps it was to prevent information about the latest suspect(s) being made public but it could have been to protect MJK's family. Another thing that is bothersome is the coffin she was buried in. It is written the church sexton footed the bill out of pity for the poor. I don't know how much that coffin would have cost, but I would suppose quite a bit. In a day before social programmes when the work house was always just around the corner, would a Sexton have spent so much money for such a reason? It makes sense MJK had family who paid for the burial and the sexton took credit. Or perhaps CCarthy and others helped foot the bill and didn't want their names known.

The papers said Mary's family was expected in London on Wednesday (12/14/88), but they never arrived. I truly believe the authorities did contact her family and knew who they were.

Something I would like to ask Dr. Weston-Davies is about the question of religion. It seems MJK was buried as a RC based on more than the idea she may have been born in Limerick. Her funeral was put off an extra day so the service and burial could be RC. Perhaps again family had intervened. So my question is, was EWD's family RC? If not, was she a convert? Maybe the book answers this. I'll buy it as soon as it is available, or win a copy. (Gee, hope I answered the question right. )

[Lynn Cates]

maybe

Hello Gareth. Thanks.

Do keep us informed, will you?

Contingent upon reviews (and especially Debs's opinion), I may get a copy.

Cheers.
LC

[Lynn Cates]

hope

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Hopefully, there will be an exhumation.

Cheers.
LC

[Lynn Cates]

family

Hello Anna. I have always wondered about the expectation for the family. Was it merely a perfunctory thought about the average family situation?

Cheers.
LC

[Rick Cobb]

The author , Mr Davies , will be available for book signings at this years Official Jack the Ripper conference.

A short 30 minute talk on the book will also take place , aswell as being part of the panel discussion / debate.

So should be an interesting weekend.

The audience will put questions to the panel but we want to gather up as much good questions as possible.

So if you have something youd like to be asked simply email it to me at :
[email protected]

Thanks

Ricky Cobb

[Howard Brown]

Great news Rick ! Good job getting him involved with the Conference.


Please post questions here for Jon's book thread

A couple I wanted to start with...I have more.

Page 131- "Elizabeth Stride had a striking Scandinavian beauty not easily forgotten...."

Page 133- "the police decided that Israel Schwartz as an unreliable witness"...( since he didn't openly testify at Stride's inquest).

[Anna Morris]

For me, EWD works as MJK up to a point and past that point I see two different women. I have a lot of reasons for thinking this way. Soon after this new idea came out I commented that EWD could have been the cousin that led MJK astray, but I thought MJK was not Elizabeth.

So now I will ask it as a question. Could EWD & MJK have been relatives whose lives converged in London? Are there any other family members that went missing near that time? Missing in London? One of these women was a murder victim. Could the other have immigrated, committed suicide, or something else?

[Anna Morris]

And.....I understand from the podcast that Elizabeth was afraid of Francis Craig and avoided him.

We have discussed here in depth whether or not MJK undressed and went to bed with the man who killed her. It is noted that her clothes were neatly folded on a chair and her boots and socks were before the fire to dry. She was either nude or in her chemise. She only had a sheet and blanket to stay warm in bed on that cold night. (In addition, the man's heavy overcoat was tacked over the window, not on the bed on that cold night.) Other women like Mrs. Prater slept with all their clothes on. Likely Mary would have done the same if she was not sharing her bed with a client or lover.

Investigators said her head was at the uppermost right hand corner of the bed when her throat was cut. I picture her knowing she was being attacked and that she scooted as far away from the killer and knife as possible which would be that corner of the bed.

If all these observations are accurate, how would husband Craig, who Elizabeth feared and probably loathed, fit into this scenario?

[Anna Morris]

Like the TV detective Columbo: Just one more thing.....

On the podcast I didn't follow the logic in Elizabeth having messed up with the Maundrell sisters and so she was demoted to the East End to work her way back into the good graces of the Maundrells, or so I understood it. If the Maundrells had anything to do with the high class brothel industry, I would think it wouldn't be a good choice to send a girl to the East End and then take her back.

However that may be, Neil Shelden and Chris Scott found information that Adrianus Morgenstern seemed to have a brothel(s), one of which was in Limehouse. Wickerman posted on casebook, "Adrianus opened up a brothel in the East End, his daughter Wilhelmina wrote of being brought up in a brothel.

Also on casebook, grantfenwick identified himself as Thomas Morgenstern's g-g-grandson, said the same about Wilhelmina.

Another location for a Morgenstern brothel might have been Fulham.

All that said, did the Maundrells have any connexion with the Morgensterns? Or were they competitors? By going to the police and press it kind of feels like Mrs. Felix was exposing "the French woman".

[Gary Barnett]

I wasn't going to buy the book, but I casually flicked through a copy at my local Waterstones and came across a photo of Breezers Hill. The caption read "Breezer's Hill looking from Pennington Street towards the highway. Mrs McCarthy's establishment was on the front left corner and Mrs Boeku's on the right." Couldn't resist it after that.