The Five: The Lives of Jack the Ripper's Women (Rubenhold, February 2019)

[Gary Barnett]

In 2014, Mike Covell, a Ripperologist, wrote:

Annie Chapman’s life was a tragic one, with suffering and pain at almost every step. By the time she had died she had lost one child, separated from her husband, and seen him pass away. Whether we accept her as a victim of ‘Jack the Ripper’ or not, her story deserves to be told. Her story as a wife, a mother and a victim. This is that story

Presumably HR would read that as she was ‘just a prostitute’.

[Mr. Poster]

Shed view it as orthodox ripper fetish porn for circle jerking fanboys.

P

[Gary Barnett]

As a slight aside, although it is relevant to challenging HR’s claims that Ripperologists have no interest in the victims, did anyone follow the Peterborough bye-election on the news?

Lots of interesting shots of the centre of the city and the Cathedral Precincts.

One view in particular, of the main entrance to the Cathedral and the gardens outside it, sent a shiver down my spine. I could just imagine little Alice taking her dad a packed lunch when he was the gatekeeper there.

Guests: Alice is Alice ‘McKenzie’, a Whitechapel murder victim presumably ignored by Hallie because there are doubts over whether she was killed by the Ripper.

[Gary Barnett]

Shed view it as orthodox ripper fetish porn for circle jerking fanboys.

P

I doubt it. She cites it in her bibliography.

[Chris G.]

What does the author mean by ‘two women whose lives and deaths came to define nineteenth century Britain’?

Sounds good, but what on earth does it mean?

Queen Victoria’s life I sort of get, but her death - in 1901 - how does that ‘define’ 19th century Britain?

Polly’s death may have brought the conditions of the London poor into sharp focus, but how could her life have come to define anything. Until now it was ‘untold’ wasn’t it?

More waffle which some see as valuable ‘context’.

The linking of Queen Victoria and Polly Nichols is a rhetorical device to connect the story of The Five, in this case the first of The Five, with the overall story of the Victorian epoch. Similarly, Ms. Rubenhold's singling out what she describes as the singular geographic location of Trafalgar Square on an east-west axis, as she puts it, dividing rich from poor. In other words, she is ramping up for her readers the importance of The Five in the narrative of Victorian Britain.

I should make clear that the author isn't claiming that Nichols was making any political point by sleeping in the square, and nor that Ms Rubenhold herself seeks to make a political point of the victim being there. Just that the same square that attracted the homeless was the location often used for political rallies.

Good to now that there is a good probability that the Mary Ann Nichols picked up by the police for squatting in Trafalgar Square is the first victim, given that the several vagrants rounded up in the square with Nichols who appeared at the end of October at Bow Street Police Court were the same people admitted to the workhouse.

But a note of caution. From everything I know about the victim Mary Ann "Polly" Nichols she comes across to me as more of a docile happy-go-lucky person rather than a disruptive and combative individual. Remember the report of her celebrating her acquisition of a "jolly bonnet"? She doesn't seem to be the type to lunge at an attendant with a knife. But neither does she come across to me like the woman picked up in Trafalgar Square who was characterized as "the worst woman in the square, and at the police-station was very disorderly."

So to me it's not a done deal that the woman rounded up in the square in December 1887 was the Ripper victim of October 31, 1888. Admittedly though Nichols was described as a heavy drinker, and alcohol can alter personalities.

It should also be mentioned that unlike the authors of A to Z , one of them of course being himself, Paul Begg in Jack the Ripper: The Facts (2004) states (p. 7) that Nichols slept in the square and that (p. 41) she was one of the persons detained for camping out in the square, found to be destitute, and admitted to Lambeth Workhouse.

Cheers

Chris

[Gary Barnett]

The linking of Queen Victoria and Polly Nichols is a rhetorical device to connect the story of The Five, in this case the first of The Five, with the overall story of the Victorian epoch. Similarly, Ms. Rubenhold's singling out what she describes as the singular geographic location of Trafalgar Square on an east-west axis, as she puts it, dividing rich from poor. In other words, she is ramping up for her readers the importance of The Five in the narrative of Victorian Britain.

I should make clear that the author isn't claiming that Nichols was making any political point by sleeping in the square, and nor that Ms Rubenhold herself seeks to make a political point of the victim being there. Just that the same square that attracted the homeless was the location often used for political rallies.

Good to now that there is a good probability that the Mary Ann Nichols picked up by the police for squatting in Trafalgar Square is the first victim, given that the several vagrants rounded up in the square with Nichols who appeared at the end of October at Bow Street Police Court were the same people admitted to the workhouse.

But a note of caution. From everything I know about the victim Mary Ann "Polly" Nichols she comes across to me as more of a docile happy-go-lucky person rather than a disruptive and combative individual. Remember the report of her celebrating her acquisition of a "jolly bonnet"? She doesn't seem to be the type to lunge at an attendant with a knife. But neither does she come across to me like the woman picked up in Trafalgar Square who was characterized as "the worst woman in the square, and at the police-station was very disorderly."

So to me it's not a done deal that the woman rounded up in the square in December 1887 was the Ripper victim of October 31, 1888. Admittedly though Nichols was described as a heavy drinker, and alcohol can alter personalities.

It should also be mentioned that unlike the authors of A to Z , one of them of course being himself, Paul Begg in Jack the Ripper: The Facts (2004) states (p. 7) that Nichols slept in the square and that (p. 41) she was one of the persons detained for camping out in the square, found to be destitute, and admitted to Lambeth Workhouse.

Cheers

Chris

A rather clumsy rhetorical device, don’t you think, when Hallie says on the one hand ‘Polly’s life story has never been told’ and then says ‘Polly’s life story has come to define 19th century Britain - which is it?

Do we know enough about Polly to think her being possibly drunk and obstreperous when arrested in the square out of character?

[Debra Arif]

The linking of Queen Victoria and Polly Nichols is a rhetorical device to connect the story of The Five, in this case the first of The Five, with the overall story of the Victorian epoch. Similarly, Ms. Rubenhold's singling out what she describes as the singular geographic location of Trafalgar Square on an east-west axis, as she puts it, dividing rich from poor. In other words, she is ramping up for her readers the importance of The Five in the narrative of Victorian Britain.

I should make clear that the author isn't claiming that Nichols was making any political point by sleeping in the square, and nor that Ms Rubenhold herself seeks to make a political point of the victim being there. Just that the same square that attracted the homeless was the location often used for political rallies.

Good to now that there is a good probability that the Mary Ann Nichols picked up by the police for squatting in Trafalgar Square is the first victim, given that the several vagrants rounded up in the square with Nichols who appeared at the end of October at Bow Street Police Court were the same people admitted to the workhouse.

But a note of caution. From everything I know about the victim Mary Ann "Polly" Nichols she comes across to me as more of a docile happy-go-lucky person rather than a disruptive and combative individual. Remember the report of her celebrating her acquisition of a "jolly bonnet"? She doesn't seem to be the type to lunge at an attendant with a knife. But neither does she come across to me like the woman picked up in Trafalgar Square who was characterized as "the worst woman in the square, and at the police-station was very disorderly."

So to me it's not a done deal that the woman rounded up in the square in December 1887 was the Ripper victim of October 31, 1888. Admittedly though Nichols was described as a heavy drinker, and alcohol can alter personalities.

It should also be mentioned that unlike the authors of A to Z , one of them of course being himself, Paul Begg in Jack the Ripper: The Facts (2004) states (p. 7) that Nichols slept in the square and that (p. 41) she was one of the persons detained for camping out in the square, found to be destitute, and admitted to Lambeth Workhouse.

Cheers

Chris

As I mentioned; notes from the 1888 settlement examination of 'our' Mary Ann Nichols document that Polly was in Edmonton workhouse in Dec 87. This tallies with the Oct 1887 news report where she and other homeless were named as being picked up in Trafalgar Square and the workhouse record that shows she had been in Edmonton workhouse 4 or 5 weeks.
It is the 1888 news report after Polly's murder that suggests she was taken to Lambeth workhouse from the square. The original report from 1887 does not mention Lambeth.

Settlement Examination
Infirmary 13 Feb 1888
re Mary Ann Nichols, 36, married, destitute
Not seen or heard of husband William Nichols 6 or 7 years. Woman lived in Vine Street 4 nights
woman lived in Fulwoods Rents 3 nights
December 1887 in Edmonton workhouse , Strand Union, 4 or 5 weeks. No home since separated from husband which was no 6 D Block
Peabody Buildings Stamford Street, Blackfriars. lived there 6 years paid 5/9 a week left there 7 or 8 years ago.
Married at St Brides Church Fleet St 16 January 1864. Maiden name Walker. Husband has got the certificate-When we separated I went
direct into Lambeth workhouse from No 6 D Blaock. Then it was agreed husband should allow me s 5/- a week which he did for 2 years
which I received from Mr Tavener at Lambeth Workhouse.
I was in Lambeth Workhouse December 1887 2 weeks and was turned out. I don't know where husband has been living last 6 or 7 years.
Paupers father- Walker at 16 Madewell Street or Maydewell Street, Allbany Road, Camberwell S.E.

1. That the Pauper has come to inhabit, and is now inhabiting the Hoborn Union, not having gained legal settlement there, nor
having produced a Certificate acknowledging a Settlement elsewhere, nor having become irremovable by residence; and that she has
become and is now actually chargeable to and receiving relief therefrom.

2. That the said pauper is the wife of William Nichols now absent from her to whom she was married at Saint Brides Church Fleet
Street on or about the 16th day of January one thousand eight hundred and sixty four.

3. That the pauper resided continuously for more than three years prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eighty at
No. 6 D Block Peabody Buildings Stamford Street Blackfriars in your ? parish in such manner and under such circumstances as to
gain a residential settlement in accordance with the act 39 & 40 Vic Cap 61 Sec 34.

Examination of James William Hill, Clerk to the Guardians of the Poor at Holborn Union, in the County of Middlesex,
touching the last place of legal settlement of Mary Ann Nicholls, aged about 36 years. Wife of William Nicholls, now absent from her.

Taken and sworn at the Guardians Offices, Clerkenwell Road in the county of Middlesex, the day and year first aforesaid bu us
signed Joseph E Green and Joseph J Goode
James W Hill


Trafalgar Square
Daily News October 26th 1887 and The Penny Illustrated Paper October 29, 1887
At the Bow Street Police-court, Mary Ann Murphy, 50, Mary Duncan, 60, James Foley, 19, Joseph Drew, 16, Elizabeth Pegrim, 65, Elizabeth Lawrence, 30, Margaret German, 32, Mary Ann Nichols, 36, Annie Bates, 16, and Flora Isabella Cadman, 18, were charged with wandering abroad without any visible means of subsistence...
This report goes on to detail that those arrested were first taken to the local casual ward, which Colin Roberts confirmed would have been St Giles.

St Giles workhouse
Admitted 25th October 1887, Mary Ann Nichols, age 36, occupation charing, religion C of E b 1851. Elizabeth Lawrence 30, servant, Roman Catholic, b 1857. Elizabeth Pegrim, 65, charing, Church of England, b 1822.

Strand Union St Giles workhouse creed register
Mary Ann Nichols, 36, admitted 25th Oct 1887, discharged 26th Oct 1887 sent to Edmonton

Westminster Admission and Discharge Edmonton Workhouse: Admission and Discharge Register, 1870-1902
Mary A Nicholls, age 36, admitted 26th Oct 1887, discharged 2 Dec 1887 at own request. (This stay Edmonton workhouse is detailed in the Feb 1888 settlement record)

[Gary Barnett]

That’s about as good as it gets, I'd say, Debs.

Hallie got it right.

[Debra Arif]

That’s about as good as it gets, I'd say, Debs.

Hallie got it right.

She certainly did. As did we. Ongoing research you see

[Guest]

I should make clear that the author isn't claiming that Nichols was making any political point by sleeping in the square, and nor that Ms Rubenhold herself seeks to make a political point of the victim being there. Just that the same square that attracted the homeless was the location often used for political rallies.

Chris

The postcards the publisher issued each contained a “fact” about the five victims you’ll only discover by reading her book.
The Mary Ann Nichols one reads:

Was present in the 1887 riots in Trafalgar Square along with William Morris and Eleanor Marx.



JM

[Howard Brown]

The postcards the publisher issued each contained a “fact” about the five victims you’ll only discover by reading her book.
The Mary Ann Nichols one reads:

Was present in the 1887 riots in Trafalgar Square along with William Morris and Eleanor Marx.

Thanks for the card, Jon......
Anyone get the impression HR is attempting to make it appear as if Nichols was with Marx & Morris at Trafalgar Square ?

[Guest]

Elizabeth Lawrence and Elizabeth Pegrim must be on another postcard.

JM

[Robert Linford]

She'll say that she can't be blamed for what her publisher does.


We need Christer to analyse the word 'present.'

[Chris G.]

The postcards the publisher issued each contained a “fact” about the five victims you’ll only discover by reading her book.
The Mary Ann Nichols one reads:

Was present in the 1887 riots in Trafalgar Square along with William Morris and Eleanor Marx.



JM

That may be what the publisher "got" from the book but I haven't so far seen the claim made in The Five . . . but stay tuned.

I wonder if Ms. Rubenhold was given the opportunity to review the postcards on the victims?

Cheers

Chris

UPDATE: In the chapter devoted to "Polly" and her travails, in the same paragraph--

"When morning came, the rough sleepers were joined by a steady stream of the unemployed and the 'friends of Socialism.' Daily that autumn [of 1887] they gathered in their thousands at the base of Nelson's column. They came with their red flags and banners, singing songs and shouting slogans about workingmen's rights. Speakers mounted a makeshift dais and addressed the assembled to rousing cheers, jeers, or hissing. . . . Among those who gathered in the square with Polly in the last weeks of October was the writer, textile designer, and socialist William Morris, along with several of his associates from the Socialist League, including John Hunter Watts and Thomas Wardle. They came to observe and debate and, in the case of Watts, to take his place at the base of the column in order to pontificate."

What no Eleanor Marx in the square with Polly??? Maybe later in the book. I'll keep a look out.

Frankly, I think in just what was said in this paragraph alone, Ms. Rubenhold is taking a liberty stating as fact that first canonical Jack the Ripper victim Polly Nichols and William Morris were in Trafalgar Square at the self-same moment, let alone as stated in the publisher's fancy "calling card" with Polly's name that she was present for the rioting. In all probability, she was not there on Bloody Sunday in November 1887. Impossible to know, from what we know. While such might be inferred as possible based on known facts, it cannot, in Sir Robert Anderson's immortal words, be known as "a definitely ascertained fact." Far from it.

[Debra Arif]

The postcards the publisher issued each contained a “fact” about the five victims you’ll only discover by reading her book.
The Mary Ann Nichols one reads:

Was present in the 1887 riots in Trafalgar Square along with William Morris and Eleanor Marx.



JM

Thanks JM. I didn't know that was written on the postcards. That's quite a stretch of the truth then.