Audioboom : Murder of Johnny Gill ( December 1888, Bradford, England)

[Rob Clack]

A lot of these kind of group photographs outside pubs were taken on bank holidays and during excursion. There's loads in the copyright files from various works, mills and groups on days out and photographed at an inn somewhere along the route (usually Kent though!) . Wallett may have taken the photograph for another reason and then registered it for copyright after the place became infamous due to Turner's trial.

Just missed this post. But yez could just be coincidental.

[Debra Arif]

That's a great image, too, Debs.

There's a brief video of CCV on youtube (very brief).

He seems to have started out as a photographic instrument maker.

Gary, have you got a link to that? I'd like to see it.
While working for the Daily Mirror as a press photographer some of his photographs of womens' rights demonstrations were used in a court case between some female demonstrators and police.

[Debra Arif]

Just missed this post. But yez could just be coincidental.

Thanks Rob. He might have taken it for a different reason a couple of years earlier and then cashed in when it was in the news in 1891. Lots of the copyright pictures seem to have been registered for that reason; the Havant case victim and accused, The Deeming pic from a Liverpool studio and photographs of Florence Maybrick that I've posted from those copyright files are a few of examples of this happening.

[Rob Clack]

Thanks Rob. He might have taken it for a different reason a couple of years earlier and then cashed in when it was in the news in 1891. Lots of the copyright pictures seem to have been registered for that reason; the Havant case victim and accused, The Deeming pic from a Liverpool studio and photographs of Florence Maybrick that I've posted from those copyright files are a few of examples of this happening.

I have gone through a few off the boxes of photographs at the NA, and they don't usually give a reason for the photograph being taken or when, just the copyright registry.

Rob

[Gary Barnett]

Gary, have you got a link to that? I'd like to see it.
While working for the Daily Mirror as a press photographer some of his photographs of womens' rights demonstrations were used in a court case between some female demonstrators and police.

Here it is, Debs. It's said to be him.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HnoUfpxeN1w

There's a bit about him here too (you may already have seen it, I know you are interested in Victorian photography).

http://www.cartedevisite.co.uk/2013/...946-biography/

[Gary Barnett]

A lot of these kind of group photographs outside pubs were taken on bank holidays and during excursion. There's loads in the copyright files from various works, mills and groups on days out and photographed at an inn somewhere along the route (usually Kent though!) . Wallett may have taken the photograph for another reason and then registered it for copyright after the place became infamous due to Turner's trial.

That particular photo seems to have been carefully staged, don't you think? With the people on the window bays and the artistically-placed horse and cart on the right balancing the man in the wheel barrow on the left. If there were a few Union Jacks in evidence, you might think it was a jubilee or the Relief of Mafeking, or something similar.

Perhaps it commemorated some significant event in Horsforth's history.

[Jerry Dunlop]

Here is a brief Timeline of events from various press reports:

Saturday, June 6, 1891-Walter Turner abducts and kills Barbara Waterhouse in his home at 1 Back Lane, Horsforth. Ann Turner was visiting friends and family in Leeds.

Sunday, June 7, 1891- George Joy (Ann Turner's grandson) visits at 1 Back Lane from Leeds. He traveled back with his grandmother. He notices his uncle Walter constantly on the sofa which is now blocking the cellar door. Walter eats all his meals on the sofa.

Monday, June 8, 1891-Ann Turner enters the cellar to find the bundle and touched it letting out a scream. Walter tells her a false story about the bundle. Walter and Ann move into another house owned by the brother of the same landlord (Mary Ann Robinson). They move the tin box with the wrapped bundle inside by hand cart to the new house which was "down the street". 13 year old Robert Everson was recruited by the Turner's to assist in the move.

Wednesday, June 10, 1891- Ann Turner and Walter travel in broad daylight by train from Newlay to Leeds with the tin box containing the dead body. They bring the tin to the shop of Tom Joy (Ann's son-in-law). After confessing to a Mrs. Mary Cotterill (a friend of 17 years) Ann and Walter take the body from Tom's shop to the Town hall and remove the bundle from the tin box and deposit it on the ground. The body is discovered the same day by PC William Moss.

From here it is not clear to me yet how they got home to Horsforth but on this same day (Wednesday), Police Sergeant Poyser of the West Riding Constabulary, Horsforth, arrested Walter Turner. Detective Sergeant Tiswell of the same police force charged Walter with the murder of Barabara Waterhouse and Ann was charged as an accessory after the fact. Mrs. Turner's response was; "I know nothing of it being done".

[Jerry Dunlop]

I also wanted to mention, in the book Guilty or Not Guilty published in 1929 by Guy Logan, he apparently mentions that Walter Lewis Turner was suspected in the Johnny Gill murder after the Waterhouse murder.

Has anyone read Logan's book?

[Howard Brown]

JD :

6th post in this thread :

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9604

[Jerry Dunlop]

JD :

6th post in this thread :

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9604

Thank you buddy!

[Anna Morris]

In one report or the segment of book linked here, Mrs. Turner said they walked home to Horsforth and arrived at 1:00. (I assume 1:00 in the afternoon?)

I am also confused about the Joy family so I suppose I need to re-read some information. The grandson named Joy stayed with the Turners and observed suspicious activities. I thought this grandson was the son of the "deaf and dumb" couple in Leeds.

Or is this couple actually the sister and brother-in-law of Mrs. Turner? I am not sure where I got mixed up.

[Jerry Dunlop]

In one report or the segment of book linked here, Mrs. Turner said they walked home to Horsforth and arrived at 1:00. (I assume 1:00 in the afternoon?)

I am also confused about the Joy family so I suppose I need to re-read some information. The grandson named Joy stayed with the Turners and observed suspicious activities. I thought this grandson was the son of the "deaf and dumb" couple in Leeds.

Or is this couple actually the sister and brother-in-law of Mrs. Turner? I am not sure where I got mixed up.

Hi Anna,

Jessie Joy is Ann's daughter and Walter's sister. Tom Joy is Jessie's husband and the grandson is George Joy who stayed with them in Horsforth. Tom and Jessie were deaf and dumb.

The part about walking I believe was back to the Joy's after dropping the body off at town hall, but at first I thought it was back to Horsforth. Still not sure on that one.

[Anna Morris]

Hi Anna,

Jessie Joy is Ann's daughter and Walter's sister. Tom Joy is Jessie's husband and the grandson is George Joy who stayed with them in Horsforth. Tom and Jessie were deaf and dumb.

The part about walking I believe was back to the Joy's after dropping the body off at town hall, but at first I thought it was back to Horsforth. Still not sure on that one.

I took it to be back to Horsforth. If it was just after dropping off the remains, it wouldn't have taken them until 1:00 (pm ?) to walk back to the Joys would it? I'll try to find what I am thinking of. I think it is in the part of the book that you linked.

[Rob Clack]

The spot where Barbara Waterhouse's body was found in 2012. I don't think it has changed a bit.





Rob

[Howard Brown]

Thank you very much, Rob !