Audioboom : Murder of Johnny Gill ( December 1888, Bradford, England)

[Anna Morris]

The link to the book is post #17. It appears they walked back and forth between Leeds and Horsforth.

Concerning George returning to Horsforth with Ann it is said they left around 5 pm and arrived in Horsforth about 8 pm. If the distance was about 6 miles that would work out.

Concerning the night they deposited the remains Ann said, "We then walked home, and arrived about 1 o'clock." Sounds like 1:00 in the morning.

[Debra Arif]

Here it is, Debs. It's said to be him.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HnoUfpxeN1w

There's a bit about him here too (you may already have seen it, I know you are interested in Victorian photography).

http://www.cartedevisite.co.uk/2013/...946-biography/

Thanks Gary.

[Debra Arif]

That particular photo seems to have been carefully staged, don't you think? With the people on the window bays and the artistically-placed horse and cart on the right balancing the man in the wheel barrow on the left. If there were a few Union Jacks in evidence, you might think it was a jubilee or the Relief of Mafeking, or something similar.

Perhaps it commemorated some significant event in Horsforth's history.

Yes, I agree, Gary. I think it was taken to mark an event too, everyone seems to be in their Sunday best and posed especially for the occasion like you say.

[Debra Arif]

I have gone through a few off the boxes of photographs at the NA, and they don't usually give a reason for the photograph being taken or when, just the copyright registry.

Rob

That's right, Rob. The register forms don't say when or why the photograph was taken, just when it was registered for copyright and by who. A lot of photographers registered photographs after a related event made the news. The dozen or so Florence Maybrick photograps I posted from the copyright files were all registered by different photographers in 1889, when Florence was on trial and in the news but they were all taken in different years. The Havant victim and suspect portraits seem to be just that, ordinary portraits taken of the boys in the photographer's studio in earlier years and then just dug out by the local photographer when the boys were in the news.

[Rob Clack]

That's right, Rob. The register forms don't say when or why the photograph was taken, just when it was registered for copyright and by who. A lot of photographers registered photographs after a related event made the news. The dozen or so Florence Maybrick photograps I posted from the copyright files were all registered by different photographers in 1889, when Florence was on trial and in the news but they were all taken in different years. The Havant victim and suspect portraits seem to be just that, ordinary portraits taken of the boys in the photographer's studio in earlier years and then just dug out by the local photographer when the boys were in the news.

So the Bull Inn photograph could have been taken any time. And just have been copyrighted because of the Waterhouse murder.

[Anna Morris]

That is an interesting picture. There are more men than women. There are just a few adult women. There are more little boys than little girls. Almost all the little girls are in the first row. It looks like a family on the left balcony. The woman wears a very ornate hat.

I have tried to think what might have been the occasion. School, wedding, parade, celebration? Could these be people employed by the Black Bull? But there are too many of them, surely? Do the adults represent employees and the children their off spring? There is one fellow with a horse and cart. Did he freight the liquor? Perhaps the prosperous looking family on the left balcony owned the establishment? The right balcony seems to have more men.

[Mark Davis]

That is where the body was stored. They searched 2 miles far and wide for the murder scene but failed. All the floorboards were ripped up here looking for trace forensic evidence, blood in cobwebs etc. The place was as clean as a whistle.

"Photograph of 'The Old Boot & Shoe', Horsforth, (in Which the Murder of Barbara Whitehouse (sic) Is Supposed to Have Been Committed."


Photograph taken by Samuel Arthur Nichols, Kirkstall Rd, Leeds.


[ATTACH]17741[/ATTACH]

In June 1891 Charles Cheetham Vevers registered this photograph for copyright. Charles is listed on the 1911 census as a photographer, portrait and press. His address in June 1891 was given as 12 Market St Briggate, Leeds. In later years he worked for the Daily Mirror.

[Mark Davis]

The author of the podcast simply twawled online newspapers whilst living in Italy. She emailed me requesting my primary source material (I obviously refused) so she could finalise her, then three weeks of research and cobble it into a book that was to be published on the heels of her previous Colouring Book.

The author on this podcast tends to think the milkman was guilty but it looks to me like the crime took a lot of time and the killer did a number of things to satisfy his perversions. The milkman had a schedule, wife and baby.

[Mark Davis]

I also wanted to mention, in the book Guilty or Not Guilty published in 1929 by Guy Logan, he apparently mentions that Walter Lewis Turner was suspected in the Johnny Gill murder after the Waterhouse murder.

Has anyone read Logan's book?

[Mark Davis]

One from 1873

Just missed this post. But yez could just be coincidental.

[Mark Davis]

Walter Turner split with his wife at the back end of 1888 and moved to Bradford with his mother. Months later he moved back to Thompson St in Shipley and lived a relatively normal life till getting drunk in August 1889 and taking a knife to his wifes neck.



Walter Turner

Hi Anna,

I will look further into the distance between Turner's house and where Barbara was last seen when I get a chance. The course of events went like this, though. After Turner murdered little Barbara, he took her home (Horsforth) and placed her body in the coal cellar. Then, after his mother Ann discovered the body in the cellar, they both travelled 5/6 miles down the road to Leeds and deposited the body where it was discovered by PC William Moss wrapped in a shawl. One news report says, Ann said a terrier dog followed them and persistently sniffed at the tin box as they went.

As far as Johnny Gill goes, I don't have absolute proof yet but I'm pretty confident Turner was living in Shipley at the time of Gill's murder. That would put him about 3 miles from Johnny's house.

I am with you on the weaver point. Bradford was a town with fabric mills. Turner worked for a fabric mill at the time of the Waterhouse murder (Messrs. Lonsdale Mills). Turner may have had every reason to go down there to look for work or deliveries, etc. His relatives all say he was very violent.

Here is an interesting read on this case that gives a few more details than the papers. It's called Billington: Victorian Executioner. Chapter Two, Worse than Helen.

https://books.google.com/books?id=N7...sforth&f=false

[Rob Clack]

One from 1873



Nice.

Walter Turner split with his wife at the back end of 1888 and moved to Bradford with his mother. Months later he moved back to Thompson St in Shipley and lived a relatively normal life till getting drunk in August 1889 and taking a knife to his wifes neck.



Walter Turner

Taken from a photograph.

[Mark Davis]

Many believed Walter Turner to be not guilty of actually killing Barbara Whitham Waterhouse. Given the lack of crime scene etc and the possibility of his involvement in the John Gill murder it is more likely he was the procurer and disposer or simply the disposer. A Nasty man who wished his own child dead, the world was better off without him in any event.

Ironically where Barbara is buried in Horseforth, very close by (within 8 ft) is the grave of a Mary Ann Gill who though totally unrelated bears the name of John Gills mother.

[Mark Davis]

Based on the fact that Sir Henry Irving might have been in Bradford touring during the Christmas of 1888

Sickert was her suspect, of course.....)

[Howard Brown]

Mark
Thanks very much for sharing all this info !