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Audioboom : Murder of Johnny Gill ( December 1888, Bradford, England)

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Mark Davis View Post
    That is where the body was stored. They searched 2 miles far and wide for the murder scene but failed. All the floorboards were ripped up here looking for trace forensic evidence, blood in cobwebs etc. The place was as clean as a whistle.
    Thanks Mark. I guess that's why Vevers used the cautious 'supposed to have been committed' when he registered the picture. Maybe the forensic examinations hadn't been completed by that time.

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    • #77
      If Walter Turner split with his wife toward the end of 1888, that could be the stressful event that pushed him to kill. If he killed Johnny.

      Didn't his wife leave him permanently in 1891?

      I believe pretty much anything but Walter sure looks guilty. It didn't help his cause that he wrote in a statement, that a man he didn't know, with whom he had been drinking, dropped off the body!!!!!!!!! (A man named Jack. Probably Jack D. Ripper.) Even I cannot find a shred of innocence in that story.
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
        Thanks Mark. I guess that's why Vevers used the cautious 'supposed to have been committed' when he registered the picture. Maybe the forensic examinations hadn't been completed by that time.
        The legal issue would be conviction or not. The area had already experienced the issue with the milkman Barrett.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • #79
          Thank you Mark,

          I found this clip which gets into the same detail as you posted earlier.

          Lloyds Weekly, June 21, 1891


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          • #80
            From 'Famous Crimes: Past and Present.

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            Rob

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            • #81
              Wow, Thanks Rob,

              That article goes as far to say that Walter Turner was living on Manningham Lane during the time of the Gill murder. If he was indeed a resident in Bradford living on Manningham Lane in December of 1888, he is suspect #1 in my book for the Gill murder. The two crimes were very similar in signature.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                Wow, Thanks Rob,

                That article goes as far to say that Walter Turner was living on Manningham Lane during the time of the Gill murder. If he was indeed a resident in Bradford living on Manningham Lane in December of 1888, he is suspect #1 in my book for the Gill murder. The two crimes were very similar in signature.
                I can't vouch for the accuracy. The article appeared around 1903/04

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                • #83
                  That's true, but it looks like other news report in 1891 claim he was living in Bradford. I think Shipley was considered Bradford, though, was it not? Just curious why they actually mentioned Manningham Lane?

                  I also found the death register of his father in 1887 , George Atkins Turner, and it was registered in the Bradford district.

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                  • #84
                    Great stuff, Jerry and Rob !
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                    • #85
                      I don't know if this will help or not but the following excerpt was taken from this website regarding the murder of Johnny Gill. http://www.leedstrinity.ac.uk/blogs/...ipper-up-north

                      Part of the body had been wrapped in a Liverpudlian newspaper with the name and address 'W. Mason, Derby Road' written on it. Efforts were made to trace W. Mason but to no avail.


                      Searching for W. Mason I came up with the following:

                      The Commercial Directory of Liverpool:

                      Mason, William, corn factor, 70 Derby Road, Kirkdale N


                      The Jurist, Volume 6: 1843 Bankrupts

                      W. Mason, Boston, Yorkshire, corn dealer
                      June 20 at 11, District Court of Bankruptcy, Leeds and ac.

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                      • #86
                        On a wholly unrelated theme, JD....I did a double take after reading Jeff Bloomfield's post on Casebook ( the link I posted the other day on this thread) and saw the name 'W.Mason'.

                        5 minutes or less before I read it, I had just registered Wayne Mason on The Forums.

                        Back to the show....
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                        • #87
                          Apparently an important aspect of these cases is that the bodies had been washed inside and out. One account stated the police could understand draining away of the blood if the crime(s) were committed outdoors. However that may be, I have not heard a satisfactory suggestion about a water source for the washing.

                          The author on the podcast at the beginning of the thread seems to think the stable had adequate water, but did it? (I personally believe the stable was just a dumping spot.) What kind of water supply was available? Was it pressurized through reservoirs and gravity or water towers? What kind of water supply would Walter's house have had?

                          We tend to forget that homes didn't have the nicely pressurized water we have these days. A modern system could easily wash down a body or blood but I doubt the same for Victorian systems.

                          So then, what was available to Walter in the 1891 crime? He mentions a Jack who lived or worked in a quarry. Was he describing an element of his own crime? Was that where the blood disposal and washing took place? Quarries can fill with water, creating ponds. Another thought is that he was a weaver. I assume the mills used steam power and likely had ponds and boilers on premises? And what about rivers and streams?

                          Even if Walter had enough water in his home, would there have been a bathtub or large enough sink with drain available? Or would he have had to dump waste water in the yard?

                          I note also that Walter's father died in 1887. That is another major stress. His wife left him in late 1888. It sounds like he could have been ready to explode in late December 1888.
                          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                            Apparently an important aspect of these cases is that the bodies had been washed inside and out. One account stated the police could understand draining away of the blood if the crime(s) were committed outdoors. However that may be, I have not heard a satisfactory suggestion about a water source for the washing.

                            The author on the podcast at the beginning of the thread seems to think the stable had adequate water, but did it? (I personally believe the stable was just a dumping spot.) What kind of water supply was available? Was it pressurized through reservoirs and gravity or water towers? What kind of water supply would Walter's house have had?

                            We tend to forget that homes didn't have the nicely pressurized water we have these days. A modern system could easily wash down a body or blood but I doubt the same for Victorian systems.

                            So then, what was available to Walter in the 1891 crime? He mentions a Jack who lived or worked in a quarry. Was he describing an element of his own crime? Was that where the blood disposal and washing took place? Quarries can fill with water, creating ponds. Another thought is that he was a weaver. I assume the mills used steam power and likely had ponds and boilers on premises? And what about rivers and streams?

                            Even if Walter had enough water in his home, would there have been a bathtub or large enough sink with drain available? Or would he have had to dump waste water in the yard?

                            I note also that Walter's father died in 1887. That is another major stress. His wife left him in late 1888. It sounds like he could have been ready to explode in late December 1888.
                            Anna,

                            Good points about the water. When asked by her friend in Leeds, Mrs. Turner said there was a small mark on the bedroom floor that she cleaned up. One press report claimed it may have been a boot print. But as Mark has mentioned earlier, the place was fairly clean.

                            As far as the quarry goes. David Waterhouse (Barbara's father) was a quarryman. I tend to think either Ann or Walter or both were reading the papers about the murder and maybe that information leaked out. I also think Walter may have been reading about the Ripper murders and "Jack" was probably a good name to use to pin the murder on. If Walter was the Gill murderer, isn't it interesting that 3 months after the Ripper sends a missive about "clipping the ears off", Johnny Gill has an ear clipped off. Who knows?

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                              Anna,

                              Good points about the water. When asked by her friend in Leeds, Mrs. Turner said there was a small mark on the bedroom floor that she cleaned up. One press report claimed it may have been a boot print. But as Mark has mentioned earlier, the place was fairly clean.

                              As far as the quarry goes. David Waterhouse (Barbara's father) was a quarryman. I tend to think either Ann or Walter or both were reading the papers about the murder and maybe that information leaked out. I also think Walter may have been reading about the Ripper murders and "Jack" was probably a good name to use to pin the murder on. If Walter was the Gill murderer, isn't it interesting that 3 months after the Ripper sends a missive about "clipping the ears off", Johnny Gill has an ear clipped off. Who knows?
                              I am not sure where I am with the idea of copycat crimes but think the more restricted society of 1888 may give an extra dimension to copycatting. Today's creeps and wanna be serial killers can go online, buy videos and read horrible books and magazines. They can wallow in porn, bestiality, torture and cruelty. This was not so in 1888.

                              I wonder if JtR wasn't very liberating to others who wanted to commit the ultimate outrage but didn't know where to get started. I do think Walter's use of "Jack" was a reference to Jack D. Ripper but it could simply be a quick name for a man. Like Spring Heel Jack, or JtR himself. We have no idea what JtR's name was, maybe Aaron or Montague or...

                              We have proof of copycatting in the case of Jane Beademore. That's a creepy case that makes absolutely no sense.

                              But Walter broke ultimate taboos in attacking a very young child. (Or children.)
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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