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Audioboom : Murder of Johnny Gill ( December 1888, Bradford, England)

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  • Audioboom : Murder of Johnny Gill ( December 1888, Bradford, England)

    https://audioboom.com/posts/5137208-...istory-podcast

    Eric Rivenes hosts this program with guest, Kathryn McMaster.

    In December 1888, in Bradford, England, a little boy named Johnny Gill disappears and is eventually found murdered, his body mutilated almost beyond recognition. Kathryn McMaster, author of "Who Killed Little Johnny Gill" tells the tragic story of this most horrific of crimes, and the man who she thinks did the evil deed.
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  • #2
    That is a horrific case, far worse than anything JtR did. I was just going to comment/ask if the killer was ever identified. Guess not.

    (I first read of the case in Patricia Cornwell's first JtR book. Sickert was her suspect, of course.....)
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • #3
      Anna:

      No, no one was ever convicted.
      It certainly was a horrific murder.
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      • #4
        There is a good archived thread here from 2009 about this case. Lots of names we still know weighed in on the subject.

        The author on this podcast tends to think the milkman was guilty but it looks to me like the crime took a lot of time and the killer did a number of things to satisfy his perversions. The milkman had a schedule, wife and baby.

        There are some elements to the crime that could apply to the torso murders in London however I seriously doubt anyone from London went north and knew the area well enough to accomplish this murder.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • #5
          Hi How and Anna,

          I still think Walter Lewis Turner could be the killer of Johnny Gill. He was in the area and was convicted for the murder of the child, Barbara Waterhouse, in 1891. Barbara was also mutilated horrifically. In 1889 Turner was living in Shipley, which is about 3 miles north of Bradford. It was in Shipley that he attempted to murder his wife by slashing her throat while she slept.

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          • #6
            JD:

            If you have an article or two concerning Walter Turner, would you please post one if you have the time ?
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
              JD:

              If you have an article or two concerning Walter Turner, would you please post one if you have the time ?
              Sure Howard.

              The articles I found earlier are on the Barbara Waterhouse thread here.


              I'll see if I can dig up more for this thread.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                Hi How and Anna,

                I still think Walter Lewis Turner could be the killer of Johnny Gill. He was in the area and was convicted for the murder of the child, Barbara Waterhouse, in 1891. Barbara was also mutilated horrifically. In 1889 Turner was living in Shipley, which is about 3 miles north of Bradford. It was in Shipley that he attempted to murder his wife by slashing her throat while she slept.
                That's interesting. Whoever killed Johnny HAD to have been extremely disturbed and twisted. He must surely have done other criminal acts or stalked children or groomed them for molestation, or something. If experts knew more about that sort of crime back then I bet they would have found some local or fairly local person who had an unnatural affinity for children. I cannot imagine the milkman just deciding to do something like this.
                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                • #9
                  Here's a little more on the details of the Waterhouse murder for comparison to Johnny Gill. Johnny Gill was 8 years old and Barbara Waterhouse was 5 years old.

                  Cornwall Cornishman, June 18th, 1891



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                  • #10
                    Thanks a lot, JD....much appreciated.
                    I'm marginally familiar with the Waterhouse murder from locating articles over the years, but never paid a lot of attention to them.

                    Here's another child murder...from 1888...the Havant Murder

                    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ghlight=Havant

                    Thanks again, Jerry.
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                    • #11
                      Great ideas, Jerry! Walter Turner is an excellent suspect for the Johnny Gill murder. Both cases are SO similar. Both victims' remains were basically displayed where they would get attention and cause outrage. His mother must have been very strange.

                      I wonder if JtR had such a helpful, devoted mother?

                      (Note in the one case, the remains were carted off in a box initially. Thinking about the torsos in London, I wonder if those were taken near the dump sites via box and wagon and then packed a short distance when it was properly dark and the areas deserted? Considering the New Scotland Yard building site, it would have been easy to cart in anything I suppose? Like modern construction sites with deliverymen coming and going?)
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                      • #12
                        Jerry, Anna....

                        Horsforth, where the Waterhouse child was murdered, is only 8 miles from Bradford, where Gill was murdered.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                          Jerry, Anna....

                          Horsforth, where the Waterhouse child was murdered, is only 8 miles from Bradford, where Gill was murdered.
                          Thanks Howard,

                          The best I have gathered on Turner's whereabouts are as follows:

                          1881 Census- has him living at 15 Saltaire Road, Shipley.
                          1889- He was still living in Shipley when he tried to murder his wife.

                          Assuming he lived in Shipley from 1881-1889, he was only 2 or 3 miles from Bradford in 1888.

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                          • #14
                            Nice work, JD!
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                            • #15
                              Howard,

                              I found an account that Ann Turner (Walter's mother) states in 1890 Walters wife Helen, had left him and fled to America. It was then that he moved in with his mother in Horsforth. There is a good chance he was living in Shipley in 1888.

                              Also, comparing the two murders, Johnny Gill was believed to have been murdered elsewhere and the body brought to the location after. Same with Barbara Waterhouse. Both had post mortem mutilations. Johnny's legs were hacked off and Barbara had gashes up both legs in the inner thigh area. Both had deep stab wounds to the chest. In Barbara's case, it broke her sternum due to the force. Both had post mortem organ mutilation. Gill had his heart removed and place under his chin and Waterhouse had her liver lacerated several times, post mortem. Only three of her forty five stab wounds bled indicating stabbing after death. She also had been stabbed in the genitals with a knife after the murder. And with Johnny Gill, there was also severe genital mutilation; the entire scrotum had been cut away and like several other organs was nowhere to be found.

                              Turner sounds like he had the exact state of mind as Jack the Ripper, although I highly doubt they are one in the same.

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