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**Murder Casebook 5th November, 2013**

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mike Covell View Post
    Trevor, did you not use a company to make a photofit of Carl Feigenbaum in your paperback edition despite there being several sketches showing him in the contemporary press?

    What is the difference?
    At the time I was not aware of the original photo.

    Anyone else want to be a smart arse ?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
      Anyone else want to be a smart arse ?
      What a fantastic eloquent display by a former member of the Metropolitan Police. Do you treat your audience members at your lectures with such disdain? I note also the response appears to be copy and pasted from an earlier response you gave to me. You are getting good at this copy and paste lark.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Mike Covell View Post
        What a fantastic eloquent display by a former member of the Metropolitan Police. Do you treat your audience members at your lectures with such disdain? I note also the response appears to be copy and pasted from an earlier response you gave to me. You are getting good at this copy and paste lark.
        Well I cant be arsed re typing it again when you are clearly as you have done before trying to be smart and sarcastic with me that cuts no ice.

        You need to take a look at yourself before you start admonishing others.

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        • #49
          Take a week off Trevor.
          Mike's question was perfectly legitimate.
          I've already said we're not playing games about the rudeness.
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          • #50
            Originally posted by Nemo View Post
            Do you think it wasn't a girl but John Gill that is the supposed 7 year old victim?

            I don't really get the sequence of events here - did this man change his name and go to Hartlepool to distance himself from the Ripper crimes and kill Jane Beardmore and then return to London to kill Stride/Eddowes/Kelly?

            Is it me or is there in recent times a proliferation of people who think it worthwhile to associate themselves via family with famous murderers for their 15 mins of fame?
            Just going back to the topic of the Belcher/Williams connection- I've been reading the background details given and the researcher says her relative William Belcher was a milkman living and working in Whitechapel in the heart of the area of the murders but left in 1888. I wonder how she was able to research this? He wasn't in Whitechapel for the 1881 census, he was still with his parents in Marylebone where he was brought up. He wasn't in Whitechapel in 1891, he'd gone to Hartlepool by then. I think his daughter's birth in 1886 was also registered in Marylebone so I wonder what records show him being in Whitechapel and leaving in 88?
            The surname change doesn't occur in 1888 at the time of the family's supposed move either. Their son Willie was registered as Willie Belcher in Hartlepool in Sept qtr. 1889 so they were still using that surname a year later.

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            • #51
              Just when you think Hartlepool's name can't get any worse ......
              If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
                Just when you think Hartlepool's name can't get any worse ......
                Lol. She might have solved the case,Tracy!

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                • #53
                  I smell another hoax brewing and being busted here, Debs...
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                    Just going back to the topic of the Belcher/Williams connection- I've been reading the background details given and the researcher says her relative William Belcher was a milkman living and working in Whitechapel in the heart of the area of the murders but left in 1888. I wonder how she was able to research this? He wasn't in Whitechapel for the 1881 census, he was still with his parents in Marylebone where he was brought up. He wasn't in Whitechapel in 1891, he'd gone to Hartlepool by then. I think his daughter's birth in 1886 was also registered in Marylebone so I wonder what records show him being in Whitechapel and leaving in 88?
                    The surname change doesn't occur in 1888 at the time of the family's supposed move either. Their son Willie was registered as Willie Belcher in Hartlepool in Sept qtr. 1889 so they were still using that surname a year later.
                    This may be purely coincidence but looking at the electoral registers to see if there were any clues to a Whitechapel connection there, I noticed that there was a William Belcher listed at 44 Dorset Street who disappears after the 1888 register. The only trouble is-it's Dorset Street Islington.
                    I don't think anyone could make such a basic error but I'm still left wondering how she knew he was in Whitechapel-the electoral roles are the main source for addresses outside the ten year census entries but I can't seem to find him in there at all.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                      I smell another hoax brewing and being busted here, Debs...
                      I don't think it would be classed as a hoax, How, but it may be a mistake?
                      It's probably too early to say. Until they say what records were used to place Belcher in Whitechapel (hopefully it will be revealed in the program) I'm struggling to place him there using the usual research tools.

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                      • #56
                        You're as kind as you are lovely....okay, I'll accept it might be a mistake, Debs.
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                        • #57
                          I couldn't find him in the electorals either Debs.

                          Maybe some newspaper report? "Whitechapel milkman in dairy wars fracas" or something like that.

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                          • #58
                            As How says your too kind Debs - the way I see it if people like yourself and a few others on here haven't managed to find a Hartlepool connection (minus the Maybrick one) then I can't see how this author has.

                            This is from the local paper

                            JACK the Ripper may have moved to Hartlepool after his notorious crimes according to a woman who discovered she is a distant relative of a man who fits the profile of Britain’s most notorious serial killer.

                            Dianne Bainbridge says distant relative William Belcher matches every characteristic of the man whose five gruesome murders terrorised London’s Whitechapel area and ended in 1888.

                            He had left London as the Ripper’s murders appeared to end, moving to Hartlepool with his wife and young daughter and changing his surname to Williams.

                            He can then be linked to two similar murders in the North of England, both near the train route between London and the town.

                            Mrs Bainbridge, 55, from Northumberland, started her research three years ago after a relative gave her a memento card for a boy called James Walter Robert Webber, who died aged seven in 1888.

                            The mum-of-three obtained the boy’s birth certificate and found he had an older sister, Annie Belcher, who was married to William and lived in Whitechapel in 1888 with him and their four-year-old daughter Kate, but then seemed to vanish.

                            She then found Annie, William and Kate “Williams” living in Hartlepool from 1888 onwards, with the same middle names, dates and places of birth as the Belchers, and no trace of them before this date.

                            Mrs Bainbridge said: “It felt like they were trying to write off their lives in London and rewrite their history. They were clearly running away from something.

                            “It was bizarre to discover this. I went out of my way to prove they were not involved with the Ripper, but every time I entered new details, links came up.

                            “Where William was living in Whitechapel was right in the middle of the murders and the path he took to work every day had murders to its left and right. His father-in-law was a butcher, William was involved in the family business and as a milkman he could go out in the early hours without raising suspicion.”

                            Mrs Bainbridge talks about her discovery in Fred Dinenage: Murder Casebook, on the Crime & Investigation Network at 9pm on November 5. Her self-published book on her research, Jack The Ripper: In My Blood, is available from Hartlepool’s Central Library or by emailing [email protected]


                            Jacob Levy trumps this bloke hands down.........least he was in the area at the time!
                            If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                              I couldn't find him in the electorals either Debs.

                              Maybe some newspaper report? "Whitechapel milkman in dairy wars fracas" or something like that.
                              Thanks Robert. I wonder if the 44 Dorset Street man who disappears from the register after 1888 has been mistaken for him then and the address assumed to be the Spitalfields Dorset St? Although the same man appears also as William John Belcher so that would be a doubly odd mistake.
                              I can't think of a way Mrs Bainbridge got all this information though-she must have something extra as she mentions his violence towards women and children. Plus she seems to know his work route. He must have left his milk round account book or something! I hope Charles Lechmere settled his milk bill or she'll be after Edward for the unpaid bills!

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                              • #60
                                Some of the primary sources that they consulted do feature in the book. These do include birth certificates etc. They also provide several detailed family trees.

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