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Why did Sir Charles Warren have the GSG erased?

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  • Cris Malone
    replied
    Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
    ...So I suppose all of you Matthews detractors here have studied in depth the history of the Home Office, its duties and responsibilities (which changed over time,) its various departments, and you have compared Matthews to other Home Secretaries, etc, etc. A thorough historical examination leaving no stone unturned.

    Or are you simply looking at Matthews through the lens of the Whitechapel murder case exclusively and making your value judgments based on this one tiny slice of time.
    Hi Roy,

    I try not to conduct my research and studies into the personalities involved in the WM saga based on this one tiny slice of time. It would be a mistake to do so. Nor do I try to be judgmental without attempting a proper assimilation of information on, not only the individual, but the other factors and personages that came into play. As it is though - and being as stark as it was in my response - it is just my opinion, nothing more. One would expect some controversy to a degree - especially when it comes to political figures. Even historians assimilate the same information in different ways many times. Try to discuss almost any aspect of the American Civil War with another enthusiast and you'll know what I mean. What I don't have a taste for is agenda based assumptions to boost a theory that has no bases in historical analysis... and Roy, this field has been full of that crap.

    Just a little trivia since I mentioned the Civil War... and it involves Henry Matthews too...

    Matthews was instrumental in getting Henry Morton Stanley, the African explorer ("Dr. Livingston I presume") reestablished as a naturalized citizen of Great Britain (one of the jobs of the Home Secretary as you know). The love of Stanley's life, Dorothy, had high aspirations for HMS and put on her finest to personally persuade Mr. Matthews. She charmed him to death and it worked - Matthews being a confirmed bachelor and all.

    As a young man, Stanley was living in Arkansas when the War Between the States broke out. He joined the Confederate army after a girl he was sweet on sent him a petticoat in a parcel - an indirect accusation of cowardice. Stanley was later at the battle of Shiloh and his account of what he experienced in that battle is one of the most vivid recollections ever written - way before the fictional Red Badge of Courage gained literary notoriety.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Jon Guy:

    Thanks for posting that material...much appreciated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Whitechurch
    replied
    There was Crow crap all over the wall, so it needed washing anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lynn Cates
    replied
    F F

    Hello Roy. Campbell has some choice titbits, in his book, about Secretary Matthews.

    Worth a go.

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Roy Corduroy
    replied
    Originally posted by Cris Malone View Post
    And speaking of sacking Warren if he had not resigned... I can guarantee that Henry Matthews would not have made any decision regarding that matter if he had been there. He would have left it to Warren and then left him to hang out and dry. He did it with he house-to-house search controversy as well as the reward and pardon debate.

    ...

    It never ceases to amaze me how narrow minded and literally ignorant many people in this field are and continue to be.
    Good evening Cris,

    So you can guarantee that?

    Henry Matthews takes such grief here. Its not just you, Cris. Jonathan called him Hapless Henry. And I've noticed a tendency for people to join the boo Matthews chorus at the drop of a hat.

    So I suppose all of you Matthews detractors here have studied in depth the history of the Home Office, its duties and responsibilities (which changed over time,) its various departments, and you have compared Matthews to other Home Secretaries, etc, etc. A thorough historical examination leaving no stone unturned.

    Or are you simply looking at Matthews through the lens of the Whitechapel murder case exclusively and making your value judgements based on this one tiny slice of time.

    Roy

    Leave a comment:


  • Lynn Cates
    replied
    discipline

    Hello Neil.

    "Warren deserved more than he got."

    To be sure. I rather like the chap and SURELY they knew he'd bring a bit of discipline?

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackdaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    No one ordered Warren to erase the message.
    That is your opinion.
    And I have mine.
    And neither of us were in Warren's office at the time in question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    No one ordered Warren to erase the message.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackdaw
    replied
    The Phone Call

    Originally posted by tel View Post
    This is the point exactly - AND located in a relatively obscure entryway at that. The excuse won't wash at all.
    Hey!
    Great pic Tel.
    So?. . .
    Who do you think ORDERED mister Warren to wash the walls.

    Matthews?
    The Home Office?
    The Prime Minister?
    Or The Palace?

    Ha Ha

    Kind Regards
    Jackdaw :-)

    Leave a comment:


  • tel
    replied
    NARROW MINDED - If the message was considered to be racially immflamatory then how could it ignite a riot if it was covered up for a few hours till first light to be photographed?

    And I oft wonder where all these so called rioters were going to come from at such a time of day come night?
    Especially if there is nothing to see?
    This is the point exactly - AND located in a relatively obscure entryway at that. The excuse won't wash at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackdaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    Warren was hired for the very traits he possessed and then ridiculed when he exercised them. He was glad to get back in the army where he knew the enemy was before him instead of behind...and honor, loyalty and trust weren't just hollow words from some stump speech.
    -Cris Malone-

    Excellent, Cris....thank you
    Yeah. Excellent Cris.
    Big thumbs up and all that???

    However.
    You may need to edit your post.
    Entitle it "PUPPET"
    Because that in effect is all Warren was.
    He asked for monetary reward for those who would be prepared to offer information re JACK - Matthews and the Home Office said NO.
    He asked for more control over the CID and how detectives go about detecting crime . . .and Murders - Matthews and the Home Office again said NO.

    Warren was but a puppet in post.
    And the powers that be were pulling his strings.
    Until he could take no more tugging.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monty
    replied
    One of my favourite Punch cartoons which sums the Warren/Henderson situation perfectly.

    Warren was bought in to 'stiffen' up the police after Hendersons seemingly lax reign, and Warren accepted the job because he, erronously, thought he was being bought in to reform. Early memos during his own reign backs this up.

    Warren deserved more than he got.

    It was a case of beware of what you wish for.

    Monty
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Lynn Cates
    replied
    roll

    Hello Cris. Thanks.

    "Matthews was a politician, Lynn; need I say more."

    Frankly, no. (heh-heh)

    "Warren was hired for the very traits he possessed and then ridiculed when he exercised them."

    Right again.

    You ARE on a roll.

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Warren was hired for the very traits he possessed and then ridiculed when he exercised them. He was glad to get back in the army where he knew the enemy was before him instead of behind...and honor, loyalty and trust weren't just hollow words from some stump speech.
    -Cris Malone-

    Excellent, Cris....thank you

    Leave a comment:


  • Cris Malone
    replied
    Matthews was a politician, Lynn; need I say more.
    Warren was a soldier, where being decisive was a matter of course for those responsible for the men under their command and the actions they were to undertake.

    Warren was hired for the very traits he possessed and then ridiculed when he exercised them. He was glad to get back in the army where he knew the enemy was before him instead of behind...and honor, loyalty and trust weren't just hollow words from some stump speech.

    Leave a comment:

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