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Did Walter Sickert write any of the Ripper letters?

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  • Did Walter Sickert write any of the Ripper letters?

    Ok; Patricia Cornwell may be full of cow-cookies so far as Ripper theories go, but she may have found proof that Walter Sickert wrote some of the many Ripper letters sent to the authorities. Did he actually do so or not?
    24
    YES - Patricia Cornwell has to be right about [I]something[/I].
    0.00%
    0
    YES - Sickert was obviously obsessed with the case.
    8.33%
    2
    YES - Artists are eccentric anyway, and Walter was a bubble or two off of level.
    8.33%
    2
    YES - Sickert was obviously fantasizing about being the Ripper himself.
    4.17%
    1
    YES - and why shouldn't he? He [I]was[/I] Jack the Ripper, after all!
    0.00%
    0
    YES - [I]somebody[/I] had to have written them, and it sure looks like he might have.
    4.17%
    1
    NO - She was wrong about everything else here; why should Cornwell be right about this?
    12.50%
    3
    NO - Sickert was fascinated with the case, but all that came out in his art.
    16.67%
    4
    NO - the DNA, watermarks, etc. are all coincidental, in spite of appearances.
    4.17%
    1
    MAYBE - Well, he might have written [I]one[/I] of them, like so many others felt the urge to.
    41.67%
    10

  • #2
    "Poor research" + "poor suspect" = Cash grab

    Comment


    • #3
      Its been a while since Cornwell wrote the book......In the interim,she hasn't come out ( well,she has,but not that way !) and expanded on these letters definitively..................Whats that spell? To me, that she made her money and forget the rest.
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      • #4
        DNA and Cornwell.

        Yo How and the JTR brigade

        OF COURSE Sickert wrote at least some of the JTR letters! It is beyond coincidence to suggest otherwise. Cornwell is the ONLY ripper related author to bring forward physical evidence of her suspect, the rest put forward theories and conjecture. That Sickert was the ripper is a different debate altogether, but a case that is made stronger for her now that she has PROVEN BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that he wrote some ripper letters.

        I love Cornwell and her book. Her Scarpetta novels are getting better too. You guys should try finding out something about her before slagging her off and making scurrilous accusations about her sexuality .... ;@)

        One thing I have posted on before: I DO NOT believe that Cornwell had no interest in the case before "happening" upon Sickert as a suspect. The amount of references to JTR and the similarity to the crime scenes she uses in some of her novels is, again, beyond coincidence.

        She's a clever woman. She isn't trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. She was right, Sickert wrote some of the letters. That's where me and her part company because, as you all know, James Maybrick was Jack the Ripper.

        When will you learn?

        Ciao.

        Peter Peter Pumpkin Eater.

        Comment


        • #5
          I got your pumpkin hanging low,over here !!

          Peter...I agree with you about her having knowledge of the Case, probably for some time,prior to writing her book....
          Please show where it has been proven that Sickert wrote a letter to the Press claiming to either be the Ripper or using the name Jack The Ripper.

          If you cannot do so,then hook me up with that blonde mama you sent me a photo of...This seems a fair exchange.

          Seriously,Peter.....its good to see you back. Now go pick on Ivor.
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          • #6
            Proof

            For proof of which letters Sickert wrote please refer to Ms Cornwell's excellent book on the subject: Portrait of a Killer ... or whatever she called it.

            Please tell me where I can find "proof" that Jack the Ripper was variously a black magician, a Jew who spoke no English, a 72 year old physician who had suffered a stroke, an abortionist ... get the picture???

            Blonde Mama? Hmmm ... don't remember that one dude, but then I have been through a few recently.

            Mr Pumpkin Pie

            P.S. Me, wind Ivor up? He does that for himself when he reads my posts.

            Comment


            • #7
              "I have been through a few recently.- Dr.Love, a.k.a. Peter Wood

              A few ? How about all of Northern England? ...look out Scotland !!

              If she has proven it to your satisfaction,I go along with you then. I read about 30 pages and got sidetracked.

              And if anything, you are right about her shelling out the moolah...6 Million smackers is a lotta popcorn for any venture.
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              • #8
                The evidence that Cornwell gives for believing that Sickert wrote letters is absolute rubbish. The scientitifc tests were wildly inconclusive, and it's only because she felt the need to get something out of all the money she spent (and her bias against Sickert from day one) that she presents them as she does.

                There isn't a single person out there that I am aware of (excepting, of course, the experts she paid and who generally phrase things a lot more cautiously than she does) who understands the science behind the tests who thinks they amount to anything. A sample of *mixed* mitochondrial DNA (from more than one person) on a Ripper letter (that was regarded as a hoax by every authority I've seen) that matches some but not all segments of mitochondrial DNA that she assumes is Sickert's with no proof? It's ludicrous.

                To top it off, evidence is very strong that Sickert was in the south of France at the time the letter she tested was mailed with a London postmark. So not only does she want us to believe that he commuted back and forth for three murders but also to be around to mail off a bunch of letters. Right.

                The idea that she's fooled anyone into thinking he wrote even one letter is just sickening. I think a lot of people want to give her a pass on a letter or two because they know it doesn't prove Sickert was a killer, they don't fully grasp the meaning of the science Cornwell throws out, and it's nice to say that Cornwell didn't completely screw up everything.

                I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just to let her slide on this one. I will admit that it's conceivable that maybe he did write the Openshaw letter (after hearing of the events from a newspaper and then mailing it to some trusted person in London to put into a new envelope and mail again so it gets a London postmark), but it's not only unproven but also fairly unlikely.

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                • #9
                  Norder shoots...he scores !

                  That was a definite H-bomb....What do you have to say about that,Woodrow ?
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                  • #10
                    Some people just don't understand ...

                    Yo How Brow

                    Dan is just getting his knickers in a twist because someone doesn't agree with him, vis: " ...they don't fully grasp the meaning of the science Cornwell throws out" - Doh! Neither does Dan full grasp the fact that after 116 years Cornwell is the FIRST person to even attempt to present hard tangible physical evidence - and for that alone she deserves a round of applause. Now, as to whether or not people "grasp" what she is saying ... it's actually quite simple. At no point does she assert that the DNA on the sickert letters and his overalls IS his, she just throws it into the mix that out of the whole population two people from the same one percent share sequences of mitochondrial DNA found on Sickert artefacts and ripper artefacts. Don't start throwing up the "So how many hundreds of thousands is that then?" argument, because equally it means there are millions who weren't in that match. Sickert could easily have been one of those millions, still maybe if Dan could ever get off his Harris and spend some money like Ms Cornwell has done in an attempt to PROVE his theories rather than pontificating and suffering the usual verbal diarrhoea that affects those who simply can't accept that others are entitled to a differing point of view.

                    For my money the maths is conclusive: Sickert wrote SOME of the ripper letters. Yes, he DEFINITELY wrote the Openshaw letter, go read the book again Dan, see when he was and wasn't in London, witness the paintings that were signed and dated and put them in the timeline of ripper letters - he may even have written more letters too - but, until Dan can come up with something more worthwhile than: " ...A sample of *mixed* mitochondrial DNA (from more than one person) on a Ripper letter (that was regarded as a hoax by every authority I've seen) ...".

                    What does it matter if the Openshaw letter was a hoax? At this stage I'm not arguing that Sickert was the ripper because, as you all know, that accolade belongs to James Maybrick, I'm just saying that Cornwell has proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Sickert was up to his neck in it when it came to writing ripper letters.

                    Anyway, I've wasted enough time on that, if some people can't grasp the concept that it isn't always necessary to have the complete DNA sequence before knowing that a match will result.

                    Yo Sorcia, go read "Black Notice" and "The last precinct" - just about the best Scarpetta books yet. How can you say that Cornwell tries to make Scarpetta into a Clarice Starling figure??? Starling worked for the FBI, Scarpetta is a forensic medical examiner. Starling was early 20's, Scarpetta is early 50's ... Scarpetta is clearly based on the person that Cornwell would like to have been.

                    Case proven. Sickert wrote the letters, Maybrick did the murders.

                    Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

                    Peter.

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                    • #11
                      Now, as to whether or not people "grasp" what she is saying ... it's actually quite simple.

                      It only appears simple to people who don't understand the science. Cornwell tries to simplify it because she knows she's got nothing, kind of like the rest of her book...

                      At no point does she assert that the DNA on the sickert letters and his overalls IS his, she just throws it into the mix that out of the whole population two people from the same one percent share sequences of mitochondrial DNA found on Sickert artefacts and ripper artefacts.

                      Ah, but that 1% figure is for a full match mitochondrial unmixed sample, and even there most experts say it's actually closer to 10%.

                      Don't start throwing up the "So how many hundreds of thousands is that then?" argument, because equally it means there are millions who weren't in that match.

                      That's ridiculous. "I'm not sure the defendant is the person I saw, because approximately a hundred thousand or more people fit the description from what little I could make out, but put him in jail anyway because at least there are still millions of people who won't possibly be going to jail for a crime they didn't commit."

                      And it's even worse than that when you look at it. At least hundreds of thousands of people could have been responsible for the DNA tested, and we don't know that the "Sickert" sample was actually Sickert's, and we don't know that the DNA on the Openshaw letter was that of the person who wrote it.

                      And the mixed DNA sample means that the DNA from the two or more people contributing to it may not have the same genetic markers if they had been tested seperately. It's like someone seeing a tall guy with blonde hair and a moustache, a short guy with dark hair and a beard, and an average guy with redhair and cleanshaven... and then trying to connect it to a tall person with dark hair who is clean shaven. It could be a complete miss that accidentally matches because of the mixed DNA.

                      This "hundreds of thousands of people" becomes even more and more people as each problem with the tests is examined.

                      Sickert could easily have been one of those millions, still maybe if Dan could ever get off his Harris and spend some money like Ms Cornwell has done in an attempt to PROVE his theories rather than pontificating and suffering the usual verbal diarrhoea that affects those who simply can't accept that others are entitled to a differing point of view.

                      People are entitled to differing points of view, but science is science. Cornwell's science is bad.

                      You also seem to be advocating Cornwell's position that she is right because she says she's right, evidence be damned and if you disagree prove her wrong. That's not how the real world works. I don't have to spend any money to prove her wrong because what she has is complete garbage. It's like saying that if I don't think Lewis Carroll was the killer I should go pay to run some tests.

                      Come on, get real.

                      For my money the maths is conclusive: Sickert wrote SOME of the ripper letters.

                      It may be conclusive to you, but it's not supported by the actual evidence.

                      Yes, he DEFINITELY wrote the Openshaw letter, go read the book again Dan, see when he was and wasn't in London,

                      If you count on Cornwell's book to tell you when Sickert was and was not in London, you are sadly misled.

                      Let's skip some of the rant Peter tosses out here (and he was saying I had verbal diarrhea?)...

                      Anyway, I've wasted enough time on that, if some people can't grasp the concept that it isn't always necessary to have the complete DNA sequence before knowing that a match will result.

                      No, I'm perfectly aware that you don't need a complete DNA sequence to do some tests, but you need a whole hell of a lot better data than Cornwell has to even come anywhere close to saying that Sickert wrote the letters. If you understood DNA testing you'd know that. So far you have no counter argument other than you are right and that you don't pay attention to the actual scientific results.

                      Talk about failing to grasp the concept...

                      Case proven. Sickert wrote the letters, Maybrick did the murders.

                      Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

                      Peter.


                      Looks like someone with his mind made up, actual evidence be damned. Oh well, some people are like that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yawn Part 2.

                        we don't know that the DNA on the Openshaw letter was that of the person who wrote it.

                        Oh, so the person who wrote it didn't lick his own envelope and stamp then, eh?

                        As for the rest of it Dan ... I have to admit that your fiction is better than Cornwell's - I haven't laughed so much in ages!

                        Peter

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PETER WOOD
                          we don't know that the DNA on the Openshaw letter was that of the person who wrote it.

                          Oh, so the person who wrote it didn't lick his own envelope and stamp then, eh?

                          As for the rest of it Dan ... I have to admit that your fiction is better than Cornwell's - I haven't laughed so much in ages!

                          Peter
                          Actually, Petter, I know you're mind is made up, but lots of different people could have licked that stamp. Could be the letter writer's wife, mistress, servant, one of a group of rowdy anatomy students (as it appears to be a followup to the Lusk letter), someone remailing the message for someone else, and so forth.

                          And, while we are at it, there's no indication that the mitochondrial DNA was put there by whomever licked it... It's a mixed sample, after all, so that means more than one person's DNA was involved. Would you have us believe two people wrote the letter and both licked the stamp? After all, you seem so certain that it must belong to the letter writer and stamp licker only and nobody else, so that would mean two or more people would have had to do both if your belief were correct.

                          But, of course, your belief obviously isn't correct. Anyone handling the envelope at any time could have deposited their DNA on it.

                          As far as ignoring all the numerous examples of why you are wrong to simply laugh, well, I guess in your mind that beats admitting that you don't know what you are talking about. To the rest of us it just makes you look rather closed-minded and foolish.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello all,

                            Prior to the publication of Cornwell's book, but after word got out that she'd linked the Openshaw letter to Sickert through very tenuous mitochondrial DNA, I wrote an article for Ripper Notes building a case for Sickert having been the author. However, there's also a case to be made - a damn good one, I might add - for D'Onston as author of the Openshaw letter. Would it be possible for a 'dissertations' section to be added to this website? I'd like to post a couple and, eventually, two essays on the Openshaw letter, each examining the case of a different suspect - Sickert and D'Onston, so we could compare. Also, I'd love to see some more work from some of the other people who post here. What'd do you think?

                            Yours truly,

                            Tom Wescott

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Being Dan Norder ...

                              Quote Dan: "To the rest of us it just makes you look rather closed-minded and foolish".

                              "Us"? Is that a scientific "Us" or are you simply referring to the other personalities that inhabit the confined space that you call a body?

                              Come on guys, how many of you did Dan e mail, phone, text or speak to in person to ascertain your opinion of me?

                              Hmmm ... none, right? Game on Dan, you're now making up statistics as well as theories. So the mitochondrial DNA was a mix, huh? You throw many laughable (I pause to call them) "theories" into the mix (no pun intended), but fail to mention that we all come into contact with several other people every day and no doubt swap samples of skin and bodily fluids including, dare I suggest, saliva? Or do you not stick your tongue in when you kiss someone?

                              I'm right, you're wrong, nothing that has been posted since my last visit convinces me otherwise.

                              Sorc, Cornwell is of course an acquired taste. That's ok, you don't like her writing, I can accept that and have no intention of abusing you the way that Dan might along the lines of "You just don't get it because you are foolish and inferior". I would never do that Sorc.

                              Cheers big ears.

                              Peter

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