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Something More Than A Suspicion : A Rose Mylett Poll

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  • Something More Than A Suspicion : A Rose Mylett Poll

    It might be a good time for a poll regarding Rose Mylett and the tragic circumstances surrounding her death 126 years ago today.....

    Freeman's Journal
    December 24, 1888
    ****************
    21
    It Was An Accident--Not Murder
    33.33%
    7
    It Was A Murder--But Not By The Whitechapel Murderer
    57.14%
    12
    It Was A Murder--By The Ripper
    9.52%
    2
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  • #2
    This is one that, despite reading and re-reading everything I can on this, I still don't know what to believe regarding what might have happened here.
    Best Wishes,
    Cris Malone
    ______________________________________________
    "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

    Comment


    • #3
      footprints

      Hello Howard. My biggest concern has always been the lack of footprints. If that could be explained, I might switch to murder.

      Cheers.
      LC

      Comment


      • #4
        I never could put it together as a murder. Certainly not the work of JtR. But I also have problems with some contemporary comments, especially that her own collar someway choked her to death. That sounds so utterly ridiculous to me. So I wonder why someone said it.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • #5
          Not necessarily related to the death, but the determinations Sir Robert Anderson came to seem to have been established fairly early in the face of medical testimony.
          Admittedly, SRA is not someone I cotton too....yet if any police official had arrived at the determination that it was an accident that early on and flat out said the police would not get involved with an inquiry, I'd think less of that fellow too.
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          • #6
            I am quite open to the fact that Rose could have been murdered, though I don't believe she was one of Jack's. However...

            In the Complete Jack the Ripper a standard text book of the time is quoted, namely the influential Taylor's Medical Jurisprudence, which notes

            'If the body of a person is allowed to cool, with a handkerchief, band or tightly fitting collar round the neck, a mark resembling that of strangulation will be produced. Before any opinion is given that murder has been perpetrated, the medical proofs on which reliance is placed should be clear, distinct, conclusive and satisfactory.'

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Curryong View Post
              I am quite open to the fact that Rose could have been murdered, though I don't believe she was one of Jack's. However...

              In the Complete Jack the Ripper a standard text book of the time is quoted, namely the influential Taylor's Medical Jurisprudence, which notes

              'If the body of a person is allowed to cool, with a handkerchief, band or tightly fitting collar round the neck, a mark resembling that of strangulation will be produced. Before any opinion is given that murder has been perpetrated, the medical proofs on which reliance is placed should be clear, distinct, conclusive and satisfactory.'
              Hi Curryong
              Rob Clack and I used that reference in our 2009 Ripperologist (#108) article about Catherine (Rose) Mylett's death. I wasn't aware that Donald Rumbelow used it too. Is it in both editions do you know? Just out of curiosity.

              I have also used the reference on the boards to support Bond's ideas about Mylett's death.

              http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...1&postcount=98

              Dr. Bond suggested an impression from Mylett's collar was probably made as she lay dying or dead. Dr. Hebbert, Dr Bond's assistant, references Taylor's Medical Jurisprudence book in his 1889 Westminster Hospital lecture notes about the torso murders which he worked on with Dr Bond so he was familiar with the text, as probably was Bond.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Curryong View Post
                I am quite open to the fact that Rose could have been murdered, though I don't believe she was one of Jack's. However...

                In the Complete Jack the Ripper a standard text book of the time is quoted, namely the influential Taylor's Medical Jurisprudence, which notes

                'If the body of a person is allowed to cool, with a handkerchief, band or tightly fitting collar round the neck, a mark resembling that of strangulation will be produced. Before any opinion is given that murder has been perpetrated, the medical proofs on which reliance is placed should be clear, distinct, conclusive and satisfactory.'
                This reads to me like a general observation, that anything tied tight around the neck will leave a post-mortem mark in the skin.

                We know that pressure applied to the surface of the skin will push blood out of the capillaries and leave a trace of white skin, if this occurred at the time of death then yes, the visual absence of blood will still be apparent after death.
                This is what I think is being described here.

                However, anything so tight as to leave in indentation in the skin after death cannot be something assumed to have been tolerated in life.

                In the case of Mylett, the mark around the throat was not complete, at the rear a notable portion of skin was unmarked.
                A tight collar will not be so selective. It is either tight, or it isn't. It may even be tight at the front, and not at all the rear (if the head be fallen forward), but it will not be tight all around except for about 2 inch at the back.

                In fact one report described this rear unmarked patch of skin as white, ie; pinched, so as to be absent of blood.
                Classic indications of the application of a garrott.
                Regards, Jon S.
                "
                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                Comment


                • #9
                  footprints

                  Hello Jon. I must agree--it DOES look like a cord used to strangle.

                  But what of the lack of footprints? Did not the report indicate that the ground was muddy and should have shown footprints?

                  Cheers.
                  LC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    But what of the lack of footprints? Did not the report indicate that the ground was muddy and should have shown footprints ?
                    -Lynn Cates-

                    I don't recall mention of any mud being found on Mylett, Lynn.
                    Maybe it wasn't as muddy as we think or they said.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lynn Cates View Post
                      Hello Jon. I must agree--it DOES look like a cord used to strangle.

                      But what of the lack of footprints? Did not the report indicate that the ground was muddy and should have shown footprints?

                      Cheers.
                      LC
                      Hi Lynn.
                      Even if she was placed there, that would still leave someone's footprints, or carriage tracks.


                      P.S.
                      I notice the reports say no evidence of a struggle, not that there were no footprints.
                      Regards, Jon S.
                      "
                      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Most reports say the ground showed no signs of scuffling. As Lynn says, I think a couple also mention that the ground in Clarke's Yard was soft and would have shown any footprints.

                        Regarding the mode of strangulation. While Dr Bond thought the mark around Mylett's neck was caused by her tight collar, his assistant, Dr Hebbert who viewed the body along with Brownfield and Harris at the post mortem, and agreed with the conclusion of homicidal strangulation given by Brownfield, actually thought that Mylett's mouth had physically been held closed and this was how she was suffocated. Would this fit more in line with JTR's methods?

                        If Dr Bond was correct and the mark was possibly made by the collar after death it could be that it was Hebbert and not Brownfield who was correct about the mode of strangulation? It is impossible to use two hands crossed over to tighten a ligature (Brownfield's conclusion) while holding someone's mouth shut. So even where there was the reported agreement of homicidal strangulation the method used was not agreed on it seems.

                        Another thing that is briefly mentioned in questions but never elaborated on in the inquest reports is mention of a small peg or post protruding somewhere in the yard. I wish the significance of that area of questioning had been reported fully as it may have been mentioned in connection with the strangulation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You're on soft ground.

                          Hello Howard. Thanks.

                          Dr. Anderson (yes, not my favourite commentator) referred to the "soft ground" and the lack of signs of struggle.

                          Of course, footprints should have been left too, on so soft ground.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            tracks

                            Hello Jon. Thanks.

                            "Even if she was placed there, that would still leave someone's footprints, or carriage tracks."

                            Agreed. But I am not suggesting that.

                            "I notice the reports say no evidence of a struggle, not that there were no footprints."

                            Concedo. But surely a footprint would take more force than a mere scuffle? But there were signs of neither in the soft ground.

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The Taylor reference I quoted in an earlier post wasn't in Rumbelow as far as I know but in Begg, Fido and Skinner's 'Complete Jack the Ripper A-Z'. It is on page 365 of that work, in the section dealing with Rose Mylett.

                              I dont want to write a missive, but on the next page (page 366) there is a paragraph on a researcher, a certain Miss Debra Arif, who brought the attention of the authors to observations on the Mylett case in 'A System of Legal Medicine' (published 1894) and she discusses Dr Hebbert and Mr Bond's differing opinions on Rose's death.
                              Last edited by Curryong; December 22, 2014, 08:18 AM. Reason: Taking out three words.

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