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Did the Victims Know Each Other?

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  • Did the Victims Know Each Other?

    Abhorrent fiction such as From Hell notwithstanding, do we think that the Ripper's victims knew each other?
    YES - they all had something in common, which is the reason that they were killed.
    YES - but only on a limited basis; each victim did not know all of the others.
    YES - they knew each other professionally, having used the same john.
    YES - they knew each other socially.
    YES - they knew each other both professionally and socially.
    NO - they had seen one another at times while soliciting but had never met.
    NO - they sometimes shared a doss, but they had never met.
    NO - they were often in the same pub but had never met.
    NO - they had nothing at all to do with one another.

  • #2
    In modern times,hookers that work within a close proximity of each other definitely know of each other,at least. After all,like businessmen/women,they are in competition for Great God Dollar.
    I would say they knew each other by sight,at least, and probably had a few belts at the Ten Bells at the same time.
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    • #3
      Just having a nosey at the polls....

      I think some of them may have know another...not necessarily best mates..but either face, name or the odd casual chat...or looking out for each other after the news on the Ripper was out...


      • #4
        Given that all the victims lived in close proximity to each other, that they walked the same beat (so to speak!), and that they all were, at least at times, engaged in prostitution, I would be very surprised if some of them hadn't met at some time.

        I suspect that at least a couple of them (if not more) would have known each other by sight. Maybe even have known each other's names and been on speaking terms. It's even possible (tho I think unlikely) that a couple of them might have been on fairly friendly terms at some point.

        But I very, very seriously doubt whether they all went clubbing together!!


        • #5
          Hello Mrs F,
          Originally posted by Mrs.Fiddymont View Post
          Given that all the victims lived in close proximity to each other
          They didn't really - apart from Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly, and even they occupied opposite ends of a street in which 800 other lodgers lived. The others were scattered about an area jam-packed with tens of thousands of other residents.
          that they walked the same beat (so to speak!), and that they all were, at least at times, engaged in prostitution
          We don't know that they walked the same beat, indeed Kelly was the only one with an alleged "beat" at all, and by most accounts she'd only arrived in the East End within her last few years - a good proportion of which was spent in Ratcliffe and Stepney.

          The others weren't exactly established in the area, either. Nichols had only very recently arrived in Spitalfields, being primarily a Lambeth resident, and Stride had spent most of her time completely outside the area, in Poplar and St George's East. Eddowes seems to have been a casual prostitute at best and, if her exploits on the night of her death are anything to go by, she worked a patch a safe distance away from Spitalfields - and rather removed from Leman Street, where Kelly was said to have hung out.

          Whilst it's possible that Kelly and Annie Chapman, as fellow Dorset-streeters, might have known each other vaguely (and even that's not certain) I can't see any reason why any of the others would have known each other at all - not even by sight.


          • #6
            I see that back in 2004 I was singin' a different tune than I am today. I agree more with Sam's ideas now than my old ones ....with the exception of this pearl of wisdom....

            While Sam's points in regard to where Nichols hailed from, Stride's haunts and the other victim's previous digs are undoubtedly correct...the fact is that they worked the streets of Spitalfields/ the same period of time that they were killed. If they were in the habit of taking the monies they made by prostitution and going to taprooms, I am sure that some taprooms "specialized" in recieving women that the ownership knew got their money from turning tricks or were preferred by the prosses ( which may be why we hear of some bars more than others ) themselves for one reason or the other.

            This George Yard/Street theme also runs through the Case...and might have been a link for the victims....but Sam does have a very good point without expressing it outright in that there were at least 1,200 prosses in the neighborhood which diminishes the odds that they knew each other....not completely wiping the likelihood out.
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            • #7
              I would say it all depends on who you believe the killer might have been.
              If we look at the victims starting with Tabram.
              question .. Was she heard to cry out?
              Nichols... was she heard to cry out?
              Chapman ..was she heard to cry out?
              Stride.. was she heard to cry out?
              Eddowes.. The same question
              Mary kelly also.
              In the case of Tabram, no cries could be attributed to her, although a neighbour heard a street disturbance much earlier.
              Nichols.. noises were heard in Brady street, and Bucks Row, that could have been attributed to her murder.
              Chapman.. apart from a voice uttering 'NO' no other sounds vocally.
              Stride was heard to scream, but not loudly.
              Eddowes was not heard to utter a sound.
              Mjk, was possibly responsible for a cry at around 4am.
              In the cases of Nichols, Chapman, Stride, i would say that although frightened of their attacker, they were not expecting a violent ending.
              Tabram/ Eddowes apparently were taken completely off guard, and no noise was heard.
              Mary Kelly was heard to cry out ' Oh Murder' which may have been her last sounds, or was it, as Prater suggested at the inquest ' Awakening from a nightmare', especially as other points indicate to that possibility.
              Taking all of this into account.. I would say that although some distress was shown by the victims, none of them expected what they got, indicating that they knew of their attacker, and only expected a beating.
              A bit like a known local that was known to be rough with women.
              I do have resevations however regarding Mary Kelly being part of the series, i believe that her murder is more complicated.
              Regards Richard.


              • #8
                Whilst I think that it's quite possible they may have shared the same lodging house at some point, or even drank in the same pub, I don't think they knew each other.

                I have lived on my street for 30 years, and speak to most of the neighbours, but don't know the people at the other ends of the street, nor the people who live on the next street over.
                The same can be said for the locals who I have drunk with in the past, we see each other, and I might get the odd nod of recognition, but I don't know these people, and they don't know me.

                As a recent example, I have this kid that nods and says "Alright Mike" everytime we pass in the street. I don't remember him, nor do I ever recall speaking to him. I racked my brains for years trying to work out who it was, thinking about places of past employment, night clubs I have appeared at, and could not place this kid. It turns out that I went through primary and secondary school from the age of 5 through to 16 with him!


                • #9
                  Originally posted by How Brown View Post
                  the fact is that they worked the streets of Spitalfields/Whitechapel in the same period of time that they were killed...
                  Is that truly a fact, though, How? Even if it were, how frequently would their paths have realistically crossed, given that they were casual streetwalkers, out at various times of the night depending on random circumstance?

                  To return to some points I made earlier... Nichols had only lived in the area for a matter of months; Chapman had a chronic illness and had spent some time in an infirmary; Stride had mainly lived in St George's East prior to, and up to, her death (I can't overemphasise that point); Eddowes, like Chapman a "casual casual" prostitute at best, had spent some time out of town hopping and, prior to that, was in the habit of scrounging money from relatives in other parts of town.

                  It's possible that they hung around the pubs at various (NB: various) times, but there were many, many, many more pubs in the area than the Ten Bells - despite the best efforts of books and movies to suggest otherwise. All of them were found dead in different parts of town, at widely different times of the night, which is hardly surprising when one considers that this kind of "contingent" prostitute was not the type to clock-on at the same place, same time, every night of the week.

                  None of the above is particularly conducive to regular contact, not even regular eye-contact, between the victims.


                  • #10

                    To eliminate what appears to be a minor misunderstanding, the victims worked the streets in the same period of time ( Autumn 1888), at the same general time of night. Thats what I meant as I previously mentioned having changed my 2004 tune to the ditty of the Man From Wales. Mike Covell's comment on lodging houses is also a possible link, I would think.

                    Mike's recent point about familiarity with people strikes home with me. I have no clue as to even the names of any of the 30-40 other individuals ( almost all college girls,too) who inhabit my building, save two I have to know...not even the person 4-5 feet away in the adjacent flat.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by How Brown View Post
                      To eliminate what appears to be a minor misunderstanding, the victims worked the streets in the same period of time ( Autumn 1888), at the same general time of night.
                      I didn't misunderstand, How, it's just that I was pointing out that "the streets" might be too much of a generalisation - certainly in the case of Stride, who was more of a "Southerner" than the other victims - and that the "same general time of night" would, in itself, have varied depending on circumstance. It seems that most of the victims were out on the streets at that time of morning having been chucked out of their doss-house, and it's inherently unlikely that this would have happened to all of them at the same time on a regular basis. Indeed, it's not too much of a stretch to suggest that such evictions were comparatively rare - at the very least, they'd have been random and unpredictable. Bearing that in mind, then the chances of them being out on the (same) streets contemporaneously was smaller still.


                      • #12
                        Lively discussion--I like that!

                        You all make good points. I have some maps of Britain here (thanks to my obsessive interest in genealogy!) and clearly I need to get them out and study them. Next time I go to the bookstore, I'm going to buy a map of London (scribbling note to self)--I know London has changed tremendously since the time of the Ripper murders, but at least I might get a bit more familiar with the various areas! I'm afraid my Americanism is showing here--my knowledge of American geography is nothing to brag about, my knowledge of English geography is pathetic!!

                        I come from a small town, so I guess I tend to forget how very large a city can be--even an area within a city--and of course in 1888 London was a massive, sprawling metropolis. I was also overlooking just how huge a population London had--I don't even have an excuse for that, since I've just been reading about the conditions around Whitechapel in the Late Victorian era! All I can say is: DUH!!!

                        Even in my tiny town (pop. around 3000--now stop laughing!), I don't recognize most people. I don't even know a lot of my neighbors, unlike in my childhood, when it was true that nearly everyone in town knew everyone else!

                        Which brings up a question, I'd like all your thoughts on this. I've read a lot about how much society has changed in the last century or so, largely due to the Industrial Revolution. Lots of people went from living out in the country, or in small towns/villages, to the cities looking for work. This meant that while people used to socialize on a fairly limited scale--like neighbors marrying neighbors, who were practically the only prospects!--people now often lived in places where even neighbors were virtual strangers. Even in my own lifetime, I've seen this kind of "distancing" happen, and in a very small town at that--I can only imagine how much more true it must be of a large city!

                        Anyway (sorry, I tend to ramble! ), do you think that in the London of 1888 people were more (or less) familiar with their neighbors than the people of today's London??

                        *little country mouse scuttling back to her corner to await enlightenment lol*


                        • #13
                          I find it difficult to believe that none of them were acquainted in some way, even if only to say hello to in the street. I don't think there was any 'From Hell'-esque friend group, though.


                          • #14
                            Its getting like the Walking Dead with all the zombie threads resurrecting themselves..!



                            • #15
                              There are too many options on this one. I voted, they sometimes shared a doss... The better option would be, they sometimes shared a doss, were in the same pubs, may have seen each other in the neighborhood but did not know each other.

                              We do not really have any reports that any of the victims were friends or acquaintances. Friends who came forward with each victim seem not to overlap with friends from other victims. No woman ever said, all my friends are getting killed, or anything like that. They wondered who was next but the interviews we have do not seem to have a personal aspect, like memories of knowing, dossing with, drinking with a victim a week ago and then she was dead.
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript