"Skewering The Ripperologists" Bad Women Podcast- Hallie Rubenhold

[Michael Banks]

CGP, Debs, Gary....look in your email....you too, Senor Banks

Cheers How, at first glance I thought “what’s this got to do with Carrie Brown?”

[Michael Banks]

A few questions (my memory of any research on Eddowes background is poor so my apologies for asking what might seem obvious questions)

Are any of the quotes in the podcast based on anything known or are they just made up? For example she has Conway saying: “Kate I shall be hung for you one of these days.” Then she has a quote from a family member saying how much John Kelly was hated for his excessive drinking. Then there was a quote from Catherine’s sister Emma saying how “we wish especially to get her away.”

Do we know for a fact that she first went to London from Wolverhampton by canal?

Do we know for a fact that she was at Robinson’s hanging or is this an assumption based on the fact that she was related to him?

She says that John Kelly was a heavy drinker. Is this true? According to Sugden, Frederick Wilkinson had never seen him drunk but that Kate did like a drink or three.

I have to say though that probably the most irritating thing for me is the tone. It always sounds to me like she’s making revelations that she’s just uncovered about the terrible conditions and hardships that women at that time had to deal with, as well as the derogatory attitudes that were held toward them. As if Ripperology has been keeping these uncomfortable facts to itself for years before St Halle arrived on the scene bringing truth and justice as her mission. I eagerly await her next book The Framing Of Amelia Dyer.

[Gary Barnett]

Thanks Debs and How!

[Howard Brown]

CGP, Debs, Gary....look in your email....you too, Senor Banks

[Debra Arif]

I don’t have a copy myself, and the Google books version doesn’t include that particular story. If no one else has it, I may buy one online. HR doesn’t include it in her bibliography, but she does include MJ’s ‘Mammoth Book of JTR’.

https://archive.org/details/mammothb...d&view=theater

"They kept walking, and then Tom started singing. It was the ballad they had written together, the one they were planning to sell. The one about hanging. Eventually, Kate joined in and, as their voices grew louder, they tried to outdo each other, until Kate pushed Tom in the side and he pushed her back, and they fell on to the road in a heap, laughing in the dark."

Note also the language of the fictional detective when referring to Eddowes and the other victims..

[Gary Barnett]

Gary:

If you or anyone else has the Jakubowski book ( Page 381-391 ) you might want to compare it to the content of the podcast, too.

What you posted sounds very similar, if not identical, to the tone of Rube's romanticizing of Eddowes' imaginary life.

This might be big, buddy.

I don’t have a copy myself, and the Google books version doesn’t include that particular story. If no one else has it, I may buy one online. HR doesn’t include it in her bibliography, but she does include MJ’s ‘Mammoth Book of JTR’.

[Howard Brown]

Gary:

If you or anyone else has the Jakubowski book ( Page 381-391 ) you might want to compare it to the content of the podcast, too.

What you posted sounds very similar, if not identical, to the tone of Rube's romanticizing of Eddowes' imaginary life.

This might be big, buddy.

[Gary Barnett]

Gary:


You might have hit on something here, buddy.

I have the anthology it appears in and didn't notice the story until now.

David Bishop's fictional story, The Ballad of Kate Eddowes, predates Rube's semi-fictional, "The Five" by a few years. Maxim Jakubowski's anthology came out in 2015.

Do you think this might be the source for Rube's claim that Eddowes was the Carole King of Spitalfields ?

Rube had a recent podcast titled, The Ballad of Kate Eddowes.....not Catherine Eddowes....Kate Eddowes.....

Could Rube have used a completely fictional story written prior to The Five and claimed it to be a fact ?

Me ? I wouldn't be surprised if it's true that she did.

Here’s a review of it from 2019. Sound familiar?



“Kate Eddowes wasn’t just a victim, she was also a person. And one man is determined to make sure that she’s remembered for that.

This is a great flickering story – it jumps between the present and the past surrounding Kate Eddowes murder. And brings to life the woman who lost her life. By showing the before and after of her murder, The Ballad of Kate Eddowes brings to life a woman who is only normally considered as a victim, and not a being in her own right.

This short story is all about making the victims of Jack the Ripper REAL. They’re not just people who were killed, but they lived a life beforehand. They left behind lovers and friends, enemies and people who would miss them. It’s the most realistic and touching of the stories so far in The Mammoth Book of Jack the Ripper Stories collection. Because it diminishes Jack’s acts and highlights what he destroyed…

There is music interspersed throughout this story. After all, it’s a ballad of love and loss. One that will make you stop and actually consider who was lost before you think about who did the taking.”

[Howard Brown]

Fer Chrissakes.....I posted a link to that story in the year The Five came out....but did not think to compare it to what Rube wrote.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/catherine-eddowes/33221-ballad-of-kate-eddowes

[Howard Brown]

Gary:


You might have hit on something here, buddy.

I have the anthology it appears in and didn't notice the story until now.

David Bishop's fictional story, The Ballad of Kate Eddowes, predates Rube's semi-fictional, "The Five" by a few years. Maxim Jakubowski's anthology came out in 2015.

Do you think this might be the source for Rube's claim that Eddowes was the Carole King of Spitalfields ?

Rube had a recent podcast titled, The Ballad of Kate Eddowes.....not Catherine Eddowes....Kate Eddowes.....

Could Rube have used a completely fictional story written prior to The Five and claimed it to be a fact ?

Me ? I wouldn't be surprised if it's true that she did.

[Gary Barnett]

Has anyone read this?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/earthandskye.org/2019/12/06/the-ballad-of-kate-eddowes-by-david-bishop/amp/

[Edward Stow]

I would suggest, that fear of denunciation as a consequence of stating unfashionable truths dominates academia. What comes first? A comfortable career and invites to dinner parties... or the truth.
That is a rhetorical question.

[Howard Brown]

Thanks Chris.....

[Gary Barnett]

I don't want to get into the middle of anything here, but Drew is a good guy and sympathetic towards Ripperology (which is rare among academics), and whilst his book was not everything it should have been and was ill-considered, he was asked to review HR's book by what I would consider to be a prestigious popular history magazine, and he wrote a fair, unbiased review which basically accused Rubenhold of editing a quote to make it appear to say something it didn't. That was a very serious accusation that could kill a career, and as it was unquestionably true, it's unsurprising that HR blew a gasket. It wasn't really necessary for Drew to engage with HR's fury. What he's said was correct. It's quite possible that Rubenhold's response spoke eloquently enough for those who were paying attention. The trouble is that we don't have Drew's clout. He's a bug to be worried about, Ripperologists are looked upon as little tics, annoying and sometimes irritating, but otherwise unimportant.

Surely, despite his denial, Drew is a Ripperologist. Or am I misunderstanding what a Ripperologist is? He studies and writes about the Whitechapel murders. He has a deep interest in the case and its societal context.

That’s it, isn’t it?

Drew is more of a Ripperologist than I am. And Hallie’s not far off.

Are you suggesting, Paul/Ed, that Drew would not address the flaws in The Five while teaching his course at Northampton for fear of being mauled by Hallie and her Twitter mob? Is that what we’ve come to?

[Chris Phillips]

Paul:

I just looked at the 'Police Magistrate' thread where the exchange was copied and posted a couple of years ago, but it's inaccessible since Gray has privatized his blog.

His review is still accessible here though:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201107230458/https://thepolicemagistrate.blog/2019/03/10/a-welcome-new-insight-into-the-lives-of-the-rippers-victims/amp/