"Skewering The Ripperologists" Bad Women Podcast- Hallie Rubenhold

[Debra Arif]

The author of the Ballad of Kate Eddowes, David Bishop gave an interview here:
https://horrorhothousereview.wordpre...-the-hothouse/

"Conway made a living as a travelling pedler, and may also have sold poems and pamphlets which he wrote. The archives in Wolverhampton have a poem written about a local murder case, and the murderer happened to be a cousin of Kate Eddowes’. I began to wonder if it was possible that Conway had written the poem, and the story began to write itself…’

[Howard Brown]

Linotte:

I am sending you an email....please read what I send and offer your opinion on this subject.

[Gary Barnett]

The author of the Ballad of Kate Eddowes, David Bishop gave an interview here:
https://horrorhothousereview.wordpre...-the-hothouse/

"Conway made a living as a travelling pedler, and may also have sold poems and pamphlets which he wrote. The archives in Wolverhampton have a poem written about a local murder case, and the murderer happened to be a cousin of Kate Eddowes’. I began to wonder if it was possible that Conway had written the poem, and the story began to write itself…’

That’s interesting, Debs.

Did he find the ballad and come to the conclusion that Conway had written it independently of the Black Country Bugle and Jarrett Kobek, I wonder?

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-kobek.html

My hunch would be that ‘Aristotle Tump’ the editor of the Bugle fabricated the idea and Kobek, Bishop and Rubenhold ran with it. Both Kobek and HR expressed doubts about the Bugle piece. I haven’t listened to the podcast, does Hallie voice her doubts about the Bugle on it?

[Gary Barnett]

A few questions (my memory of any research on Eddowes background is poor so my apologies for asking what might seem obvious questions)

Are any of the quotes in the podcast based on anything known or are they just made up? For example she has Conway saying: “Kate I shall be hung for you one of these days.” Then she has a quote from a family member saying how much John Kelly was hated for his excessive drinking. Then there was a quote from Catherine’s sister Emma saying how “we wish especially to get her away.”

Do we know for a fact that she first went to London from Wolverhampton by canal?

Do we know for a fact that she was at Robinson’s hanging or is this an assumption based on the fact that she was related to him?

She says that John Kelly was a heavy drinker. Is this true? According to Sugden, Frederick Wilkinson had never seen him drunk but that Kate did like a drink or three.

I have to say though that probably the most irritating thing for me is the tone. It always sounds to me like she’s making revelations that she’s just uncovered about the terrible conditions and hardships that women at that time had to deal with, as well as the derogatory attitudes that were held toward them. As if Ripperology has been keeping these uncomfortable facts to itself for years before St Halle arrived on the scene bringing truth and justice as her mission. I eagerly await her next book The Framing Of Amelia Dyer.

Off the top of my head Mike, I think the comments about Kelly may have come from Kate’s family. The story of the canal boat journey to London certainly did. The issue I have with HR’s take in that is that she stretches it to have them crossing the tidal Thames on their narrow boat to Bermondsey.

There is no evidence that Kate and Conway were at the Robinson execution.

[Howard Brown]

From Kobek's dissertation :

This one-sheet was undoubtedly sold at Robinson's execution. Unfortunately, it presents no author's marks, making it impossible to attribute the verses...( my emphasis)

Yet, the reader of Rube's book will be told that Eddowes was the Woody Guthrie of Wolverhampton.

[Howard Brown]

The podcast in question :



Link to the program :

https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/e9-the-ballad-of-kate-eddowes/

[Gary Barnett]

From Kobek's dissertation :

This one-sheet was undoubtedly sold at Robinson's execution. Unfortunately, it presents no author's marks, making it impossible to attribute the verses...( my emphasis)

Yet, the reader of Rube's book will be told that Eddowes was the Woody Guthrie of Wolverhampton.

Rube:

‘How well Kate new her cousin is unknown, but she and Conway would have been determined to make something of this connection. Wolverhampton Archives possesses a copy of one of the only publications believed to be linked to the pens of Thomas Conway and Kate Eddowes: “A Copy of Verses on the Awful Execution of Charles Christopher Robinson, For the Murder of His Sweetheart, Harriet Segar, of Ablow Street, Wolverhampton, August 26th”, written to be sold at the hanging in 1866. The perspective of the ballad is interesting. While many authors would have written a dramatic account of the killing, or shaped the events into a tale of murderous love, the lyrics paint Robinson as a remorseful figure, worthy of pity’


Who believed the ballad to be ‘connected’ to Kate and Conway? Aristotle Tump.

Is the tone of the ballad unusual, suggesting perhaps it was written by someone who knew Robinson? Nope, the tone of the ballad and some of the actual words are traditional.


Love the meme. :-)

[Chris Phillips]

Can I ask a very basic question? Is it known what the relationship was between Robinson and Catherine Eddowes? Neal Shelden had evidently seen Robinson's death certificate and wrote that he was born 15 May 1847 at North Street, Wolverhampton, the son of Christopher Robinson and Mary Ann late Colbourne formerly Eddowes. (He is registered as Christopher Charles.)

I note that Rubenhold calls him her "distant cousin". Does that mean they weren't first cousins?

[Gary Barnett]

As far as I know, the contemporary evidence used to construct the Ballad of Kate myth consists of:

A couple of press reports which speak of Conway selling biographical/autobiographical pamphlets. No mention of ballads.

Reports of the execution of Charles Robinson which mention a male balladeer performing to the crowd. Robinson was a relative of Kate’s, but there’s no evidence she knew him personally.

The printed ballad in the Wolves Archives which as I say was in the style of other ‘gallows ballads’ going back decades. And as How pointed out has no attribution.

A comment made by one of Kate’s acquaintances in Spitalfields that she was fond of singing.

A reported comment by one of Kate’s sisters (I think) that she was a pupil at the Dowgate Charity school.

Evidence (found by HR) that singing was taught at the Dowgate charity school where it was said Kate attended. Singing was probably taught at most girls schools. Neil Shelden has reservations about whether Kate, then living in Bermondsey, would have been a pupil at the Dowgate School in the City. Me too.




After going through the hands of The Bugle, Jarrett Kobek, David Bishop, HR and Lesley Garrett, this evidence is distorted to make Kate a famous writer and singer of ballads which she performs in pubs and at hangings ‘in the operatic style’.

[Gary Barnett]

Can I ask a very basic question? Is it known what the relationship was between Robinson and Catherine Eddowes? Neal Shelden had evidently seen Robinson's death certificate and wrote that he was born 15 May 1847 at North Street, Wolverhampton, the son of Christopher Robinson and Mary Ann late Colbourne formerly Eddowes. (He is registered as Christopher Charles.)

I note that Rubenhold calls him her "distant cousin". Does that mean they weren't first cousins?

Hi Chris,

I looked into it a while back. It seems they were distant cousins who shared the same great grandfather.

Post 34 here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...rning-be/page3

[Gary Barnett]

In the Bugle we read,

Conway-Quinn produced impromptu ballads about any event which captured the public interest and made a fair living from rhyming talents which, he considered, would be even more fully appreciated in London - hence their eventual move to the metropolis.

HR suggests the couple’s move to London by 1871 supports the Bugle’s claim. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to her that Aristotle Tump discovered they were in London on the 1871 census and wove that into his largely fictional account.

[Michael Banks]

A reported comment by one of Kate’s sisters (I think) that she was a pupil at the Dowgate Charity school.

Evidence (found by HR) that singing was taught at the Dowgate charity school where it was said Kate attended. Singing was probably taught at most girls schools. Neil Shelden has reservations about whether Kate, then living in Bermondsey, would have been a pupil at the Dowgate School in the City. Me ’.

As Dowgate School was in the City Gary does this explain the mystery of where she was heading on that final night. A nostalgic trip to her old Alma Mater?

[Chris Phillips]

Hi Chris,

I looked into it a while back. It seems they were distant cousins who shared the same great grandfather.

Post 34 here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...rning-be/page3

Thanks. Looking at the Black Country Bugle article posted by Chris Scott here - https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/16829.html - it looks as though the author did a search for Eddowes in the census, found George Eddowes the hay dealer in 1851 and jumped to the conclusion that he was Catherine's grandfather when in fact he was her great-uncle. As Christopher Charles Robinson and his widowed mother were actually living with George Eddowes at the time, that would have enabled the author (if he recognised the murderer's name) to make the connection and conclude that Catherine and Robinson were cousins (albeit thinking they were first rather than second cousins).

What I'm trying to say is that on this basis it's plausible the story about the execution could be the author's own invention. Otherwise it would have been difficult to see how he could have been aware that Catherine was Robinson's cousin, without either an earlier source or implausibly extensive research.

Incidentally, I wondered about the reference in the BCB article to "Woolley's in Bilston High Street". If it were a reference to Woolworth's it would obviously be a glaring anachronism. But White's 1851 directory of Staffordshire does list (p. 149) a John Woolley in Bilston High Street in the Hatters section (though not under Milliners and Dress Makers):

http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/218240

[Gary Barnett]

Thanks. Looking at the Black Country Bugle article posted by Chris Scott here - https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/16829.html - it looks as though the author did a search for Eddowes in the census, found George Eddowes the hay dealer in 1851 and jumped to the conclusion that he was Catherine's grandfather when in fact he was her great-uncle. As Christopher Charles Robinson and his widowed mother were actually living with George Eddowes at the time, that would have enabled the author (if he recognised the murderer's name) to make the connection and conclude that Catherine and Robinson were cousins (albeit thinking they were first rather than second cousins).

What I'm trying to say is that on this basis it's plausible the story about the execution could be the author's own invention. Otherwise it would have been difficult to see how he could have been aware that Catherine was Robinson's cousin, without either an earlier source or implausibly extensive research.

Incidentally, I wondered about the reference in the BCB article to "Woolley's in Bilston High Street". If it were a reference to Woolworth's it would obviously be a glaring anachronism. But White's 1851 directory of Staffordshire does list (p. 149) a John Woolley in Bilston High Street in the Hatters section (though not under Milliners and Dress Makers):
http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/d...oll4/id/218240

Hi Chris,

I think the author who went under the pen name of Aristotle Tump did a lot of half decent research, but I suspect that when that ran out he often made stuff up. The printer he mentions, Sellman, can be found in Bilston in 1851, but by 1861 he had changed occupations and moved away.

The Bugle’s focus was on sensational historical events in the Black Country. The Robinson case and Eddowes’ murder must be two of the area’s darkest stories. It wouldn’t have taken too much digging into Robinson’s background to come across the fairly unusual Eddowes name.

Gary

[Chris Phillips]

Hi Chris,

I think the author who went under the pen name of Aristotle Tump did a lot of half decent research, but I suspect that when that ran out he often made stuff up. The printer he mentions, Sellman, can be found in Bilston in 1851, but by 1861 he had changed occupations and moved away.

The Bugle’s focus was on sensational historical events in the Black Country. The Robinson case and Eddowes’ murder must be two of the area’s darkest stories. It wouldn’t have taken too much digging into Robinson’s background to come across the fairly unusual Eddowes name.

Gary

Yes, that was essentially the conclusion I had come to, because Robinson was living with his Eddowes grandfather in 1851. I had been thinking the author could have researched the Eddowes surname and noticed Robinson in the same household, but of course it could equally have been that he had researched Robinson and noticed the Eddowes surname, as you suggest.

It would be quite interesting to know whether the Bugle published an article about Robinson in his own right at around that time, perhaps including the results of research into his earlier life?