"Skewering The Ripperologists" Bad Women Podcast- Hallie Rubenhold

[Paul]

I haven’t forgotten that, Paul.

I know you hadn't forgotten that.... That's worrying; we're sounding like a sketch from Round the Horne, as Robert Linford would have observed.

[Gary Barnett]

I know you hadn't forgotten that.... That's worrying; we're sounding like a sketch from Round the Horne, as Robert Linford would have observed.

Ah, Rambling Rob. I miss him enormously.

[Gary Barnett]

Did somebody mention ballads?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xvH1oPVULyI

[Gary Barnett]

In response to a Tweet by Paul pointing out that the lives of the 5 had been extensively researched and written about, Hallie said:

‘If you call a couple of pages here and there 'not neglected', I'd beg to differ. Their lives have never been placed within the context of their era. This is one book, in excess of 100,000 words about all five which looks at them in the round. I'm not interested in their killer.’

And in her Waterstones blog she went even further:


‘Apart from a small booklet containing fifty-seven pages of text, nothing else on the subject [the C5] existed … ‘


Hashtag: #ReadthebibliographyHallie

[Gary Barnett]

Although there are numerous acknowledgements of the work undertaken by Ripperologists in the bibliography of The Five, there are some notable omissions. Perhaps the most glaring is Chris Scott’s ‘WILL THE REAL MARY KELLY …’.

Why might an author who had written a ‘magisterial’ 35 pages of largely fiction on MJK not acknowledge Chris’s 140+ page meagre contribution to the subject?

Mrs Merton and Debbie McGee spring to mind.

[Gary Barnett]

WWD’s 272 page fantasy about Elizabeth WD makes the bibliography under its revised title. As does Neil Shelden’s MJK and victims book - a book that contained genuinely new research.

All these books slightly miss the point about MJK’s Highway episode though. Anyone who thinks she left Mrs Buki’s establishment to go to live with Mrs McCarthy in Breezer’s Hill has probably got it wrong - IMHO. It wasn’t Kelly who moved, it was Mrs Buki. And HR gets it hilariously wrong when she implies that Kelly may have had a relationship with a 2nd Btn Scots Guards officer in Knightsbridge or somewhere equally posh. In fact, the 2BnSG were stationed a few minutes away from Breezers Hill in 1886 - not that I think MJK ever necessarily lived at a BH address.

[Gary Barnett]

The fact that a couple named McCarthy were living at 1, BH in 1891 is probably a red herring. They didn’t marry until 1889 and when the did the husband’s address was given as Shorter Street.

There were a few McCarthy families living in an around the Highway at the time and, as Debs discovered, there was a woman whose maiden name was McCarthy living at 79, PS in 1887. And 79, PS was at times considered to be in BH.

Plus we know that the Maywoods were at 1, BH from 1885 to 1888 and it was a fairly small house. I doubt there would have been room for the 4 Maywoods + McCarthies + Unfortunates and their customers.

[Chris Phillips]

The fact that a couple named McCarthy were living at 1, BH in 1891 is probably a red herring. They didn’t marry until 1889 and when the did the husband’s address was given as Shorter Street.

But despite the fact that they didn't marry until after Mary Jane was dead, Rubenhold asserts that she moved [in or before early 1887] into 1 Breezer's Hill "a boarding house that belonged to Mrs Rose Mary (or Mary Rose) McCarthy and her husband John". She must have realised the difficulties, because they are discussed by Neal Shelden. Failing to mention them at all is misleading to the reader.

It's also very strange that she seems to think these people owned their own houses. Not only the McCarthys, but "rather mysteriously for one earning a labourer’s wage, Mr Boekü began to acquire property. By 1880, if not earlier, 79 Pennington Street came into his possession." I can only assume she thinks that if someone was listed in the electoral register it means they owned the property. It seems a very strange misconception for a social historian.

[Gary Barnett]

But despite the fact that they didn't marry until after Mary Jane was dead, Rubenhold asserts that she moved [in or before early 1887] into 1 Breezer's Hill "a boarding house that belonged to Mrs Rose Mary (or Mary Rose) McCarthy and her husband John". She must have realised the difficulties, because they are discussed by Neal Shelden. Failing to mention them at all is misleading to the reader.

It's also very strange that she seems to think these people owned their own houses. Not only the McCarthys, but "rather mysteriously for one earning a labourer’s wage, Mr Boekü began to acquire property. By 1880, if not earlier, 79 Pennington Street came into his possession." I can only assume she thinks that if someone was listed in the electoral register it means they owned the property. It seems a very strange misconception for a social historian.

Yes, Chris. She seems somewhat out of her depth in the Highway. Somehow she conjures up a portfolio of properties for Louis Boekee and finds a German sugar baking family member for Dutch Elisabeth Bluma.

She admits to being surprised that a ‘labourer’ like LB could afford to own such properties. Just that one word ‘labourer’ shows how out of her comfort zone she is in the East End. Boekee wasn’t a labourer as far as I’m aware. But perhaps that’s the term she uses for anyone who isn’t a professional, an academic or an arty type.

I’m just looking over all my Breezer’s Hill stuff at the moment. I’m a bit rusty on some of it - especially the spellings of foreign surnames.

[Gary Barnett]

To go back to my ‘theory’. I see no reason why 79, Pennington Street might not have been informally described as Breezer’s Hill or the Ratcliffe Highway. And there was a lot of to-ing and fro-ing by the families who lived and operated brothels on that corner.

My holy grail in this field is a picture of Breezer’s Hill while the 4 houses and two pubs were still standing.

[Gary Barnett]

I bought a copy of the ‘Mammoth Book of JTR Stories’.*

In the ‘Ballad of Kate Eddowes’ story Bishop has Tom Conway say, ‘For too long, it’s been all about Jack the bloody Ripper. That’s all I’ve heard, all you’re interested in. Who is he, where will he strike next? But Jack’s not the real story. Those women were real - Kate, she was real too. And they deserve better.’

At one point Kate states that Robinson was her second cousin - ‘no closer than that’. Bishop also puts forward the idea that the Robinson ballad was co-authored by Kate and Tom. And he has Kate singing the ballad outside Stafford gaol.


* Published in 2015

[Howard Brown]

This might interest some people.
Include me out.

https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/e12-the-mystery-of-mary-jane-kelly/

E12: The Mystery of Mary Jane Kelly




Mary Jane Kelly’s life ended brutally in a small room in Whitechapel - but what journey brought her to East London? She sold sex in her final years - but was she born to a rich family or was she the teenage bride of a coal miner? Had she been tricked into sex slavery abroad, escaped and gone on the run from her criminal traffickers? Was Mary Jane Kelly even her real name?

[Howard Brown]

Mary Jane Kelly was the final victim of Jack the Ripper. And the mutilation of her body was more horrendous than in any previous murder. But something also sets her apart from the other victims. Her youth, her reputed beauty and the nature of her death have resulted in a strange cult growing up around her. Even her corpse cannot rest in peace... with some demanding that her bones been exhumed for examination.


E13: The Bones of Marie Jeanette

https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/e13-the-bones-of-marie-jeanette/

Curious as to how anyone, including Rube, can arrive at the conclusion that her middle name was Jeanette or Jane, for that matter, since she has not been definitively found in the censuses.

[Chris Phillips]

Mary Jane Kelly was the final victim of Jack the Ripper. And the mutilation of her body was more horrendous than in any previous murder. But something also sets her apart from the other victims. Her youth, her reputed beauty and the nature of her death have resulted in a strange cult growing up around her. Even her corpse cannot rest in peace... with some demanding that her bones been exhumed for examination.


E13: The Bones of Marie Jeanette

https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/e13-t...arie-jeanette/


Curious as to how anyone, including Rube, can arrive at the conclusion that her middle name was Jeanette or Jane, for that matter, since she has not been definitively found in the censuses.

Thanks. I listened to this one (my first, as for some reason I didn't have any problem with being asked to register, as previously).

The part about exhumation at the end is a reference to Patricia Cornwell and Wynne Weston-Davies, and included some comments from Turi King about the exhumation proposal. Depressingly there's no reference to Pat's discovery of Elizabeth Weston Davies's later history and death in Wales. I sent a copy of our Ripperologist article to Professor King in July, though I never received a reply so I can't be sure she received it. I suppose it's possible the podcast was recorded before that.

Apparently Rubenhold is going to carry on along the same lines with an interview with Cornwell in the next episode. Also it seems she is going to turn to "suspectology", as she feels Jacob Levy has been unfairly treated in this regard.

[Gary Barnett]

Thanks. I listened to this one (my first, as for some reason I didn't have any problem with being asked to register, as previously).

The part about exhumation at the end is a reference to Patricia Cornwell and Wynne Weston-Davies, and included some comments from Turi King about the exhumation proposal. Depressingly there's no reference to Pat's discovery of Elizabeth Weston Davies's later history and death in Wales. I sent a copy of our Ripperologist article to Professor King in July, though I never received a reply so I can't be sure she received it. I suppose it's possible the podcast was recorded before that.

Apparently Rubenhold is going to carry on along the same lines with an interview with Cornwell in the next episode. Also it seems she is going to turn to "suspectology", as she feels Jacob Levy has been unfairly treated in this regard.

She’s a closet Ripperologist, and the closet is made out of glass.