Thomas Fogarty

[Edward Stow]

Corduroy's are coming back into fashion I see.
You have to understand Roy that Gary takes it as read that every blind beggar story relates to Foggy.
Why, Foggy was even a witness to the shooting of George Cornell.

Tom, i didn't say Poll 'saw a soldier'. With misquotations like that you will soon be invited into the academe.

The point I was making, which I will make again, is that the copper saw a soldier and couldn't identify him later.
That Poll couldn't identify the soldiers she said she and Tabram were with is therefore no indication that she lied.
Reid was keen for Poll to testify despite her unreliability, which makes it abundantly obvious that he believed her story to be true. Given Poll's unreliability, occasioned by her apparent temperament, alochol issues and the poor state of her health, it is hardly surprising that Reid warned her.

There is a press report that said Tabram was seen in a pub with soldiers.

As Gary candidly agreed, if Poll made her story up on behalf of someone else, she could have been proved a liar by someone who was with Tabram that night. That would make using Poll as a false witness to get the real killer off the hook a very risky undertaking as she could lead the investigation to the culprit.

Having said that perhaps I should concoct a story that Lechmere knew Pearly Poll... these leaps of faith and departures into the world of fiction are all the rage now.

But... a stiletto stick isn't basically a dagger on a stick. A wound ftom a sword stick would be very different to that from a dagger or handheld bayonet.

[Gary Barnett]

Has the police procedural aspect of Poll’s caution ever been commented on by one of our ex-police colleagues - Neil Bell for instance?

Couldn’t the point of the caution have been that Reid believed Poll’s evidence might have more value in a subsequent prosecution if it had been given under caution? There was the real chance that Poll might abscond again preventing the police from obtaining her evidence under caution in the future.

[Gary Barnett]

It would be rather clean I would think because the bone wouldn't allow for much 'wiggling'. A stiletto stick is a dagger on a stick, basically.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Assuming Fogarty was Tabram's killer, is there any reason to suppose Pearly Poll wasn't in on it?

But why a dagger on a stick in preference to a dagger? Nothing in the medical or witness evidence suggests that. The weapon was a long, strong weapon like a dagger. Killeen was a fairly young man, wasn’t he? I wonder how much experience he had of forensic investigation.

If Fogarty was the killer, then Poll may well have been in on it. Her poor performance as a witness can be explained away without her having been complicit in the crime, but I think her having been coerced into being so by a violent partner is slightly more credible.

The main problem I have with the soldier story being entirely fictional is that if Poll hadn’t spent the evening with Martha, she risked her lie being discovered if others came along with an alternative version of events. Then she really would have been outed as a liar.

[Gary Barnett]

Hi Gary, who did Tom Fogarty knock down and/or who did he stab? He didn't knock down or stab Milicent Fox according to the clip below. (thank you) It said he had convictions for other assaults. Have you found those, and if so, who if any got knocked down or stabbed by Fog?



In any case Gary, this is all very interesting. Echoing the new forum member a dozen pages back I too request you compose a Ripperologist magazine article. Again, best wishes,

Roy

Roy,

It can’t have escaped your attention that I am considering the possibility that the blind Spitalfields laces seller with an ‘ungovernable temper’ who felled a woman with a blow and proceeded to stab her multiple times in September, 1888 might be one and the same as the ‘vicious’ blind laces seller named Thomas Fogarty who operated in Spitalfields and who reportedly had many convictions for assault, wilful damage etc.

And that this person, who went on to marry Pearly Poll, who was apparently based alongside her in tiny NE Passage in 1888 and was like her an habitue of the STGITE workhouse and the Whitechapel infirmary, may well have been acquainted with her at the time of the Tabram killing.

Who knows, perhaps there were two blind laces sellers operating in the area, one renowned for his viciousness and the other for his ungovernable temper.

When I feel the time is appropriate, I will pull the various strands of the Fogarty story together, most likely as a timeline on here. Of course, I don’t feel I own the Fogarty story in any respect, so if anyone else wants to get their name in print with a piece on him in Ripperologist, they may fill their boots with my blessing.


Gary

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ed,



Maybe the best way I've heard this put. Succinct and good.

Roy

Succinct, yes. Good, no. Ed's pulling our leg. The policeman saw A soldier. There was no doubt plenty to be seen. He did not see a soldier with Martha or with Pearly Poll. Reid recorded that he and his men looked and could find no one who saw the two women with the two soldiers. It shouldn't have been hard to find. He did however find someone who knew Martha well who saw her quite alone that night. No Poll, no soldiers.

Ed saws Poll 'saw a soldier'. But that's not correct. She says she spent hours in the company of two soldiers. That's a long time. She could not identify them and in fact just picked out two soldiers at random.

Reid tried to trip Poll up at the inquest and succeeded on a few levels. She alone was cautioned before giving evidence because it was understood that she was not telling the truth. Had he been able to determine Poll's actual whereabouts that night, he would have charged her.

Here's succinct and good - Pearly Poll lied to the police and that was no secret at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Ed,

... I believe the soldier did exist. The policeman saw him and like Poll he was unable to identify him. So Poll being unable to identify him is not exactly damning.

Maybe the best way I've heard this put. Succinct and good.

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

If the press reports are to be believed, it was the length and strength of the weapon used to inflict the wound through the breastbone that led Killeen to posit ‘some kind of dagger’.

I wonder how clean a wound that smashed through the breast bone into the heart would be. Rather messy I would have thought.

It would be rather clean I would think because the bone wouldn't allow for much 'wiggling'. A stiletto stick is a dagger on a stick, basically.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Assuming Fogarty was Tabram's killer, is there any reason to suppose Pearly Poll wasn't in on it?

[Tom_Wescott]

I think the suggestion of a dagger or bayonet was made because they can inflict a deeper wound than a penknife and because they are heavier and can inflict a wound through bone. A sword stick is not a weapon that could easily be used to smash through bone - I should think.

I believe the soldier did exist. The policeman saw him and like Poll he was unable to identify him. So Poll being unable to identify him is not exactly damning.

The stick used to hit Poll was probably a light walking out stick or swagger stick. Maybe it was playful.

Anna
Chris is a good musician and a keen 'Ripperologist'.

Ed,

Are you saying you think a policeman saw a soldier with Tabram and that he and Poll identified the same soldier? I suggest you re-read Bank Holiday Murders before composing the Tabram section of your upcoming book. There were indeed soldiers, but they were not seen with Tabram. They were seen with a woman who was mistaken to be Tabram. Tabram, supposedly parading through Whitechapel with Poll and two young soldiers, was remarkably not seen by another living soul. The soldiers were never identified, and the police did not believe her story.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

... considering a man who had form for knocking women down and stabbing them as a suspect in the Tabram case ...

Hi Gary, who did Tom Fogarty knock down and/or who did he stab? He didn't knock down or stab Milicent Fox according to the clip below. (thank you) It said he had convictions for other assaults. Have you found those, and if so, who if any got knocked down or stabbed by Fog?

A VICIOUS BLIND BEGGAR - Thomas Foggerty, a blind man, who has many times been convicted of assaults, begging and committing malicious damage was charged with assaulting Millicent S. Fox, a girl of fourteen. On Tuesday afternoon, as the prosecutrix was passing the brewery in the Commercial Road, the prisoner, without provocation, dealt her a violent blow on the leg with a heavy stick, and when a constable took Foggerty into custody, he said, “If I could get the stick, I would give you one the same. I had better be in prison than outside.” Mr Cluer sentenced him to one month’s imprisonment with hard labour.


Illustrated Police News, 11th June, 1898.

In any case Gary, this is all very interesting. Echoing the new forum member a dozen pages back I too request you compose a Ripperologist magazine article. Again, best wishes,

Roy

[Anna Morris]

I don't see why the story HAS to turn on soldiers or men looking like soldiers. Poll and Martha split up so who knows all what Martha did until she was killed? If she knew Poll she may have known Foggy. She could have been in his company, or the company of other men, after her stroll with the soldier. If there was a soldier.

[Gary Barnett]

I think the suggestion of a dagger or bayonet was made because they can inflict a deeper wound than a penknife and because they are heavier and can inflict a wound through bone. A sword stick is not a weapon that could easily be used to smash through bone - I should think.

I believe the soldier did exist. The policeman saw him and like Poll he was unable to identify him. So Poll being unable to identify him is not exactly damning.

The stick used to hit Poll was probably a light walking out stick or swagger stick. Maybe it was playful.

Anna
Chris is a good musician and a keen 'Ripperologist'.

If the press reports are to be believed, it was the length and strength of the weapon used to inflict the wound through the breastbone that led Killeen to posit ‘some kind of dagger’.

I wonder how clean a wound that smashed through the breast bone into the heart would be. Rather messy I would have thought.

[Gary Barnett]

I don't believe the soldier existed. Which, I'm to understand, is the crux of your story. Poll added details to her story as she went. As for a sword stick, it fits better than a bayonet with the heart wound, would be larger and more unwieldy than a pen knife, which might explain why the killer initially chose a pen knife, but upon finding that he couldn't pierce the breastplate, switched to a better tool for the job. This might also have been a dagger, but I propose that if he had two hand knives he would have used only the more sturdy of the two the entire time.

Shortly after the murder of Tabram, George Sims, who we know had extensive police contacts, wrote and published a murder story where the victim was killed with a sword stick. Might be coincidence, might not be.

The knife end of a good sword stick would not be too sturdy, as you say, but the other end would be solid.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

If you search press reports of actual swordstick attacks in 1887/8 you’ll find plenty of potential inspiration for Sims’ story. The Bloomsbury Mystery, which I believe is the one you are talking, was published in mid-August, 1888, wasn’t it? Do you suspect Sims got the inside info from Martha’s killers and rushed off a short story to mark the event? A story that was published just a week after Tabram’s death? He must have burned the midnight oil to meet that deadline.

The idea that considering a man who had form for knocking women down and stabbing them as a suspect in the Tabram case is somehow weirder than considering the Sims story was inspired by secret knowledge of the weapon used to kill Martha is quite astonishing.

I doubt the case of a swordstick would’ve lasted long in the hands of someone like Fogarty.

[Edward Stow]

I think the suggestion of a dagger or bayonet was made because they can inflict a deeper wound than a penknife and because they are heavier and can inflict a wound through bone. A sword stick is not a weapon that could easily be used to smash through bone - I should think.

I believe the soldier did exist. The policeman saw him and like Poll he was unable to identify him. So Poll being unable to identify him is not exactly damning.

The stick used to hit Poll was probably a light walking out stick or swagger stick. Maybe it was playful.

Anna
Chris is a good musician and a keen 'Ripperologist'.

[Tom_Wescott]

The weapon Fogarty used on Millicent Fox was described as a ‘heavy’ stick. A sword stick would perhaps not be long or stout enough for blind man to use as a walking aid, and perhaps be a bit fiddly for him to use as a weapon. And I don’t see why we should favour a sword stick specifically as the weapon used to smash through Martha’s breastbone and pierce her heart.

Poll’s claim to have been struck with a stick by her corporal has always seemed to me to be somewhat at odds with her statement that they parted on good terms. I suppose they could have made up after an initial bit of a barney over money - assuming the soldier existed in the first place. If he was a fiction, though, what might have been the purpose of that particular embellishment to the story? I’ve wondered whether she exhibited the signs of such a blow and felt the need to explain them away.

I don't believe the soldier existed. Which, I'm to understand, is the crux of your story. Poll added details to her story as she went. As for a sword stick, it fits better than a bayonet with the heart wound, would be larger and more unwieldy than a pen knife, which might explain why the killer initially chose a pen knife, but upon finding that he couldn't pierce the breastplate, switched to a better tool for the job. This might also have been a dagger, but I propose that if he had two hand knives he would have used only the more sturdy of the two the entire time.

Shortly after the murder of Tabram, George Sims, who we know had extensive police contacts, wrote and published a murder story where the victim was killed with a sword stick. Might be coincidence, might not be.

The knife end of a good sword stick would not be too sturdy, as you say, but the other end would be solid.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Gary Barnett]

Gary,

I'll take your word for it that you're not pulling my leg. Playing devil's advocate, I can consider the pros and cons of a blind suspect. Here's one pro - as I detailed in BHM, there's reason to suspect the bigger weapon used by the killer to have been a sword stick. The blade is in keeping with a sword stick, Pearly Poll, in one version of her story, puts a stick in the hand of one of her soldiers. He uses it to hit her (Poll). It seems perfectly logical to me that a blind man would have a walking stick and in an area like the East End, just as logical that this walking stick would also serve as a weapon.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The weapon Fogarty used on Millicent Fox was described as a ‘heavy’ stick. A sword stick would perhaps not be long or stout enough for blind man to use as a walking aid, and perhaps be a bit fiddly for him to use as a weapon. And I don’t see why we should favour a sword stick specifically as the weapon used to smash through Martha’s breastbone and pierce her heart.

Poll’s claim to have been struck with a stick by her corporal has always seemed to me to be somewhat at odds with her statement that they parted on good terms. I suppose they could have made up after an initial bit of a barney over money - assuming the soldier existed in the first place. If he was a fiction, though, what might have been the purpose of that particular embellishment to the story? I’ve wondered whether she exhibited the signs of such a blow and felt the need to explain them away.