Thomas Fogarty

[Debra Arif]

I wonder if it was the same Thomas Fogerty who was convicted of larceny by servant after previous conviction in Dec., 1871?

That's the one I wondered about too. I think I have found him in 1871 now. He is listed at Cold Bath Fields under his initials as everyone was. He's down as TM* in the index l(the * may indicate an uncertainty by the transcriber)when I looked at the page it could easily be TF, line 23, age 16 an errand boy birthplace London .

[Gary Barnett]

Nice discovery, Debra. (Find would be an understatement.)

That may well be the sugar-nicker - and very likely Foggy.

Where was he in 1881, I wonder? In the army, probably, and potentially anywhere in the Empire.

[Gary Barnett]

I wonder if the witness Willhelm Priggin is the Wilhelm Plaggmier, German sugar baker, living at 5, Mary Ann Street in 1871 as per FMP.

[Debra Arif]

Nice discovery, Debra. (Find would be an understatement.)

That may well be the sugar-nicker, I would think. And very likely Foggy.

Where was he in 1881, I wonder? In the army possibly, and potentially anywhere in the Empire.

I think I have a likely in 81. I'll just double check.

[Gary Barnett]

I think I have a likely in 81. I'll just double check.

I'm not normally a nail-chewer...

[Debra Arif]

I think I have a likely in 81. I'll just double check.

Sadly, no. It's the other Thomas Fogarty b c 1856 who has army service records but was born in Ireland, Funny that both the deserters named Thomas Fogerty, one b St George according to the one army list and the the other Irish, both seem to have been bakers by trade.

[Gary Barnett]

Sadly, no. It's the other Thomas Fogarty b c 1856 who has army service records but was born in Ireland, Funny that both the deserters named Thomas Fogerty, one b St George according to the one army list and the the other Irish, both seem to have been bakers by trade.

And bakers have errand boys...;-)

[Gary Barnett]

I wonder if Foggy had a sweet tooth? His teeth were said to be 'bad'. (But don't quote me on that, just yet.)

From Feb 26th - I must have been psychic.

[Gary Barnett]

I think this says he was in the army 4 years previously so maybe he wasn't blind in 88?
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Does it say he was born in Cable Street near Grove Street?

[Gary Barnett]

Does it say he was born in Cable Street near Grove Street?

I must have been on my second glass of wine at the time to have missed that. And even more so that I missed the reference to his having spent most of his time after leaving the army (approx 1888?) in NE Passage.

I am sceptical of claims that people living in Dorset Street at the same time must have known each other, but NEP was tiny, so there's a good chance that Poll and Foggy knew each other in 1888.

[Debra Arif]

I think there's a good chance that Royal Artillery soldier, baker, age 20 and born 1856 in St George Middlesex, baker with a scar on his forehead, 5ft 5 and a smidge, grey eyes, brown hair and who deserted at Woolwich in 1875, is the same man.

[Gary Barnett]

There are two sugar refineries in Christian Street on the 1873 OS map. One runs between Christian Street and Grove Street (near the junction with Cable Street) and the other runs between Christian Street and Stutfield Street, its southern side being in Pinchin Street. I'm not sure if they both belonged to Martineau.

[Gary Barnett]

I think there's a good chance that Royal Artillery soldier, baker, age 20 and born 1856 in St George Middlesex, baker with a scar on his forehead, 5ft 5 and a smidge, grey eyes, brown hair and who deserted at Woolwich in 1871, is the same man.

We have a small discrepancy, then, in terms of POB. The blind hawker on the 1891 census claimed to have been born in East Smithfield, which is just outside STGITE. The parish boundary runs through it just before it reaches Virginia Street and becomes the Highway/St George Street. I think it also ran through the Virginia Street Chapel (I'll check that).

But he can't be another man, can he? How many blind hawker/beggars named TF, born ca 1855 can there have been in the East End at the time?

Wasn't there another TF who was court martialled in Portsmouth (from memory) in 1873?

[Debra Arif]

We have a small discrepancy, then, in terms of POB. The blind hawker on the 1891 census claimed to have been born in East Smithfield, which is just outside STGITE. The parish boundary runs through it just before it reaches Virginia Street and becomes the Highway/St George Street. I think it also ran through the Virginia Street Chapel (I'll check that).

But he can't be another man, can he? How many blind hawker/beggars named TF, born ca 1855 can there have been in the East End at the time?

Wasn't there another TF who was court martialled in Portsmouth (from memory) in 1873?

Perhaps he was geographically challenged, or it wasn't that important to pinpoint the exact place. Some people gave completely different counties, even countries from one census to the next.

[Gary Barnett]

Perhaps he was geographically challenged, or it wasn't that important to pinpoint the exact place. Some people gave completely different counties, even countries from one census to the next.

Could be. But in both cases he gave an actual street name. Could it have been that he lied about his POB to smooth his entry into a STGITE facility?

The man in Hellingly was a good couple of inches taller (5ft 8in) than the baker and had no scar on his forehead that was noted. They did mention scars on his legs, though.

I've just noticed something rather ironic on Foggy's Hellingly record. Next to 'Present Order signed by' is the name P. M. Martineau.