Thomas Fogarty

[Debra Arif]

Could be. But in both cases he gave an actual street name. Could it have been that he lied about his POB to smooth his entry into a STGITE facility?

The man in Hellingly was a good couple of inches taller (5ft 8in) than the baker and had no scar on his forehead that was noted. They did mention scars on his legs, though.

I've just noticed something rather ironic on Foggy's Hellingly record. Next to 'Present Order signed by' is the name P. M. Martineau.

Yes. It's reasonable that his giving Cable Street nr. Grove Street as the place of his birth when he was being grilled about settlement entitlement in the SGE Union was a tactical move to avoid being 'removed'.

[Gary Barnett]

Perhaps he was geographically challenged, or it wasn't that important to pinpoint the exact place. Some people gave completely different counties, even countries from one census to the next.

And of course, if the person was illiterate, it's a case of whether the person who actually completed the form knew the correct location.

One of my ancestors was born in Ettingshall, near Wolverhampton but on the 1861 census his POB was shown as Hitchin, Herts. Both his parents were illiterate and he was a child at the time, so I can only assume the enumerator, or whoever, misheard what they were told.

Who would have filled out a census form for a Common Lodging House back then? Couldn't have been easy, but E. Smithfield is so close to where I think Foggy grew up, that it must have come from him, or someone who knew him reasonably well.

[Debra Arif]

And of course, if the person was illiterate, it's a case of whether the person who actually completed the form knew the correct location.

One of my ancestors was born in Ettingshall, near Wolverhampton but on the 1861 census his POB was shown as Hitchin, Herts. Both his parents were illiterate and he was a child at the time, so I can only assume the enumerator, or whoever, misheard what they were told.

Who would have filled out a census form for a Common Lodging House back then? Couldn't have been easy, but E. Smithfield is so close to where I think Foggy grew up, that it must have come from him, or someone who knew him reasonably well.

See my last post.
For me, there seems to be a delay in posting sometimes, beyond the usual crossing of posts, that causes a random post to suddenly appear half way through a new set of posts when it wasn't there any time before.

[Gary Barnett]

See my last post.
For me, there seems to be a delay in posting sometimes, beyond the usual crossing of posts, that causes a random post to suddenly appear half way through a new set of posts when it wasn't there any time before.

I did see it. I was just toying with the possibility that E. Smithfield could have wrong.

[Debra Arif]

Who would have filled out a census form for a Common Lodging House back then? Couldn't have been easy, but E. Smithfield is so close to where I think Foggy grew up, that it must have come from him, or someone who knew him reasonably well.

Probably the person named on the census cover sheet or someone nominated by them was probably expected to collect the data for the census forms?Registered common lodging houses were categorised under institutions in later years. The census for 35 Dorset St in 1891 had William Crossingham's name on the page before the entries.

[Gary Barnett]

I believe the man who committed Foggy to Claybury Asylum in January, 1903 was Philip Meadows Martineau, who was then a member of the Metropolitan Asylums board. His family were indeed the owners of the sugar refinery in Denmark Street, STGITE, from where the 16-year-old Thomas Fogarty had stolen the tittler of sugar in 1871.

The TF born on 11th June, 1854 and baptised at the Virginia Street Chapel a week later looks a good fit for both the sugar thief and the blind hawker/beggar who eventually married Pearly Poll and ended his days in the East Sussex Asylum.

There was, however, another East End TF born in Whitechapel in 3 Q 1856 whose birth cert I've sent off for.

[Gary Barnett]

[Gary Barnett]

In this account of the sugar theft, from The Times of 23rd Feb, 1871, TF is said to have been 17 and the refinery is located in Denmark Street:


Thomas Fogarty, 17; John Blakely, 19; William Brown, 30; Maurice Kelly, 22; and James Pluckrose, 31, were charged - the four younger prisoners with stealing, and Pluckrose with feloniously receiving a tittler of sugar, value 18s., the property of Daniel Martineau, a sugar baker. Mr. Douglas and Mr. Harmsworth prosecuted; Mr. Moody defended Pluckrose; the other prisoners were undefended, and Brown and Fogarty pleaded “Guilty.” A boy named Stephen Morgan stated that he saw the prisoners Fogarty, Blakely, Brown, and Kelly standing outside the sugar warehouse of a Mr. Martineau, of Denmark-street, at about half-past 6 in the evening of the 30th of January last. Fogarty crept into the warehouse and brought out a “tittler,” or large loaf of sugar. One of the other prisoners put a coat round it, and two of them, Brown and Kelly, took it down the street. When Fogarty was entering the warehouse, Blakely walked up and down outside and signalled the others. John Shepherd, a detective, took Fogarty into custody on the morning of the 31st of January last, and by him was taken to the Cock publichouse, kept by the prisoner Pluckrose. On being interrogated Pluckrose denied having purchased any sugar the evening previous, but eventually admitted that a sailor had left a tittler of sugar there, and he was to fetch it in the morning. The prisoner Pluckrose showed him the tittler in his parlour; it was partially covered by a sack, For Kelly the prisoners Brown and Fogarty were called, and they both denied that he was in any way concerened in the affair. For Pluckrose a witness named Sheen deposed that he was in the house kept by Pluckrose and saw Brown bring in the tittler of sugar and heard him ask Mrs. Pluckrose if he could leave it there till the next day, and heard her ask her husband if he gave his permission for this to be done. Pluckrose, who was then in the taproom, said, “Oh yes, I suppose it is all right.” He was confident no money passed. The prisoner Brown, on the other hand, declared most positively that he sold the sugar to Pluckrose and received 6s. from him for it. The jury retired for some time and ultimately found Blakely Guilty and Pluckrose and Kelly Not Guilty. Fogarty, Brown, and Blakely were sentenced each to six months’ imprisonment with hard labour.

[Anna Morris]

Considering Post 292: The sugar bakers were refining "raw sugar"? Turbinado sugar or something coarser? From cane in the tropics apparently since beet sugar was unwelcome?

To the best of my knowledge loaf sugar is pressed, granulated sugar? Surely it was not a hardened lump of syrup? I do know there were varying qualities of loaf sugar, even as there were many different qualities of wheat flour.

I have heard over and over that beet sugar is inferior and it takes a lot of beets to make a little sugar. We grow sugar beets around my area of Idaho and across the border around Ontario, Oregon. In the fall huge belly-dump trucks are overfilled with these giant, football* sized beets and I always pray one doesn't fall off and smash through my windshield. They do fall off as they littler the edges of the roads and the bar-pits, along with onions and potatoes.

*Referring to the oval US football.

[Phillip Walton]

During the Victorian era, and before sugar was sold in blocks, granulated sugar was unheard of until the 20th century. Sugar beet was first grown and processed on a commercial scale in central and eastern Europe from the mid Victorian period onwards.

[Gary Barnett]

Considering Post 292: The sugar bakers were refining "raw sugar"? Turbinado sugar or something coarser? From cane in the tropics apparently since beet sugar was unwelcome?

To the best of my knowledge loaf sugar is pressed, granulated sugar? Surely it was not a hardened lump of syrup? I do know there were varying qualities of loaf sugar, even as there were many different qualities of wheat flour.

I have heard over and over that beet sugar is inferior and it takes a lot of beets to make a little sugar. We grow sugar beets around my area of Idaho and across the border around Ontario, Oregon. In the fall huge belly-dump trucks are overfilled with these giant, football* sized beets and I always pray one doesn't fall off and smash through my windshield. They do fall off as they littler the edges of the roads and the bar-pits, along with onions and potatoes.

*Referring to the oval US football.

I'm not sure, Anna. The answer can probably be found on Brian Mawer's website.

[Gary Barnett]

I'm not sure, Anna. The answer can probably be found on Brian Mawer's website.

http://www.mawer.clara.net/usefularts.html

[Robert Linford]

I wonder if "Sugar" Martineau started the Martineau connection with Esher Cricket Club.

[Gary Barnett]

I wonder if "Sugar" Martineau started the Martineau connection with Esher Cricket Club.

I think that's where he spent his later years.

One of the things commented on on Foggy's death notice was 'old scars on both legs'. I think the treadmill was in use in Coldbath Fields in 1871, and I remember reading (Mayhew, I think) about prisoners deliberately injuring their legs to avoid having to use it.

[Gary Barnett]

For purposes of elimination I sent off for the birth cert of the TF born in Whitechapel in the 3q 1856:

The details are:

Born: 12/8/1856 in Whitechapel Workhouse.

Father: David Fogarty, a labourer.

Mother: Margaret Fogarty, formerly Brian.

This boy is too young to have been the sugar thief, and his father's forename, mother's maiden name and his place of birth are at odds with the details of the boy christened at the Virginia Street Chapel, the man on the 1891 census and the man who married Pearly Poll.