Thomas Fogarty

[Gary Barnett]

Could wounds caused by any of these wood-carving tools have been mistakenly attributed to a dagger or bayonet?

[ATTACH]18429[/ATTACH]

The tool on the far right, which is also (I think) the one at the bottom, seems to have the shape of half a dagger. If a dagger were thrust into a body and pushed upwards, might it not produce a similar wound to one from this woodcarving tool? i.e. the main impression coming from the uppermost plane of the dagger blade?

[Gary Barnett]

And before anyone raises the obvious objection:

http://www.ruralnorthwest.com/artman/publish/article_8818.shtml

[Gary Barnett]

I think the earliest specific reference we have to Fogarty's blindness is from March, 1892 (per Debs's post 225 below). However, the 1887 occupation of match seller makes me think his blindness was very likely the reason he left the army. His 3/1/1893 admission describes him as both a carver and blind.

[Anna Morris]

Bayonets are big, wood carving tools such as shown are probably smaller. But if the wood carving tools were large, for work on buildings, etc. they could be more like bayonets.

I don't know if even doctors can absolutely tell what caused a wound after it is healed. It depends on so much like how well did it heal, was there infection, was there medical attention, how was it treated?

A supposed bayonet wound to the foot was one of the supposed proofs that Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson was Anastasia. Franziska was wounded from the shrapnel from a factory explosion.

Interestingly, Louis Braille who invented the Braille alphabet, went blind because he was doing something with a leather worker's awl which slipped and injured one eye. Subsequent infection caused total blindness.

[Gary Barnett]

Bayonets are big, wood carving tools such as shown are probably smaller. But if the wood carving tools were large, for work on buildings, etc. they could be more like bayonets.

I don't know if even doctors can absolutely tell what caused a wound after it is healed. It depends on so much like how well did it heal, was there infection, was there medical attention, how was it treated?

A supposed bayonet wound to the foot was one of the supposed proofs that Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson was Anastasia. Franziska was wounded from the shrapnel from a factory explosion.

Interestingly, Louis Braille who invented the Braille alphabet, went blind because he was doing something with a leather worker's awl which slipped and injured one eye. Subsequent infection caused total blindness.

Hi Anna,

Have a look at the bayonet at the bottom of this group. That's the sort of thing I had in mind.




Gary

[Anna Morris]

Hi Anna,

Have a look at the bayonet at the bottom of this group. That's the sort of thing I had in mind.

[ATTACH]18432[/ATTACH]


Gary

I don't see any comparison with any of those and wood carving equipment. A bayonet is a sword, a knife fixed to a gun or something similar.

Knives can be used to carve wood and those who do extreme wilderness survival use knives like those bayonets for multipurpose tools. But I do not see anything like that as a regular woodworking tool used by a wood carver.

A lot of wood carving tools work like chisels one way or another.

[Gary Barnett]

I don't see any comparison with any of those and wood carving equipment. A bayonet is a sword, a knife fixed to a gun or something similar.

Knives can be used to carve wood and those who do extreme wilderness survival use knives like those bayonets for multipurpose tools. But I do not see anything like that as a regular woodworking tool used by a wood carver.

A lot of wood carving tools work like chisels one way or another.

You're probably right, Anna.

Of course, if Foggy had ever been able to afford a pukka set of carving tools, they would probably have been pawned long before he ended up in NE Passage and on the streets.

That said, these are apparently pukka woodcarving knives (albeit modern ones) and they don't look much like chisels to me. Not being an expert on Victorian woodworking tools I'd be hesitant to say one way or the other whether there was one that might cause a wound similar to that caused by a dagger.

[Anna Morris]

Those pukka knives look small. Carving knives are good for figurines and things like that.

I own a set of Victorian carving tools very much like what was first pictured. As an artist I have done some woodworking.

Short of the bayonet style, half machete sort of bush knife used in survivalism, I personally cannot think of a woodworking tool such as suggested.

BUT, that's why forums are good. Undoubtedly someone will know more.

There are other tools used with lathes. You might check those out. I think they are called gouges.

My personal work has been with furniture and such. Back in Victorian times wood carvers may have been busy hand carving parts of buildings and using much larger tools. There may also be something about wood carving back then that we are skipping altogether. What all exactly did wood carvers do in that age? Off the top of my head, if you has gas piped into your residence, who cut holes in the walls for the pipes? How big were the holes? (Now is the time for someone to pop up and say gas didn't come through pipes.:cool: I'm just guessing here.) Well, plumbing was just getting invented and I know that has to do with pipes through floors and walls.

[Gary Barnett]

I went to the LMA today to consult the Wandsworth Prison nominal registers and found 4 entries for a Thomas Fog(g)erty of the right age to have been our man. In each case the prisoner was 5ft 7in tall and had been sentenced at Thames Police Court. Two of the four convictions were for begging and two for 'drunk &c'. There was no mention of his blindness. The prison terms all coincide with gaps in Foggy's STGITE residence and the two 1899 terms are explicitly mentioned in the workhouse records.


6/9/97 - 5/10/97
Occupation: Tailor
Drunk &c

8/10/97 - 17/11/97
Occupation: Labourer
Begging

5/4/99 - 4/7/99
Occupation: Hawker
Begging after previous conviction

11/7/99 - 10/8/99
Occupation: Carver
Drunk &c

The number of previous convictions given is somewhat confusing, being, in order: E0(?), 12, blank and 6.

This cutting from the Islington Gazette of 10th September, 1896 concerns an incident that didn't result in a conviction.

[Debra Arif]

Thanks, Gary.
Tailor? That seems a bit out of whack to previous information? The other three seem plausible.

[Gary Barnett]

Thanks, Gary.
Tailor? That seems a bit out of whack to previous information? The other three seem plausible.

Wasn't one of the potential soldiers a tailor by trade?

[Debra Arif]

Wasn't one of the potential soldiers a tailor by trade?

A baker and a labourer I think?

[Gary Barnett]

A baker and a labourer I think?

The Poona deserter was recorded as a tailor in the Chatham prison register.

[Gary Barnett]

The Poona deserter was recorded as a tailor in the Chatham prison register.

I notice there was another soldier, Patrick Linehan, who was convicted of desertion at Poona on the same day as Foggy (if it was him) and who accompanied him through the prison system.

[Debra Arif]

The Poona deserter was recorded as a tailor in the Chatham prison register.

Thanks, Gary. I don't remember this but know you will be correct.
I remember that the baker born St George's who deserted was too short to be Foggy anyway? So, if there was another soldier who was the same age and resided in London and was a tailor, that would tie up the two records as we know Foggy was definitely an ex soldier who was discharged in 1887 according to the SGITE settlement record.