Thomas Fogarty

[Cogidubnus]

No I'm afraid that's it!

[Anna Morris]

Martha was stabbed all over in such weird ways.....almost like a blind man did it.....

[Gary Barnett]

A wood carver carrying his knives and tools in his pocket:

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=374470&posted=1#post374470

[Anna Morris]

Wood carving tools are--or should be--REALLY sharp. It is so easy to run some of the implements, like gouges, right through your hand if you make a mistake. (Or like the possible bayonet wound to Martha Tabram's chest?)

[Gary Barnett]

Wood carving tools are--or should be--REALLY sharp. It is so easy to run some of the implements, like gouges, right through your hand if you make a mistake. (Or like the possible bayonet wound to Martha Tabram's chest?)

I imagine the wound to Martha’s chest was caused by a longer weapon than that which caused the other 38, one with the profile of a dagger rather than the flat blade of a penknife.

Two attackers, or one attacker who carried more than one bladed tool?

��

[Justin Clement]

Is there a biographical description on Fogerty compiled yet by any researchers, perhaps published in Ripperologist?

[Gary Barnett]

Is there a biographical description on Fogerty compiled yet by any researchers, perhaps published in Ripperologist?

No, Justin, I don’t believe there is.

[Gary Barnett]

I’ve been trawling through the NA catalogue recently and finding some potentially interesting stuff. This in particular caught my eye:



The uncertainty surrounding Foggy’s army years is annoying. I wonder if this might fill the gap.

I’m off to Dorset next week, so I won’t be able to get to Kew until the following week.

Justin’s question below is a reminder that Fogarty needs at least a timeline on here. One of the reasons I haven’t created one is that the years 1874-1887 would either have to be left blank or filled with unconfirmed army info.

[Gary Barnett]

Wood Carving Tools

These tools, described as wood-carving tools, are on sale in the antiques centre in Lyme Regis. Could they cause a wound that might be described as having been caused by ‘some kind of dagger’?

They certainly look long and strong enough to have caused to the wound to Tabram’s heart.

[Anna Morris]

I would think so but what is the actual size of the instruments? I assume you are taking into account the general size of a bayonet of the time.

These tools look like they would be used for major wood carving, on buildings or furniture and such. I thought Foggy carved small things?

Since most of the wounds to Martha Tabram were done with a smaller knife, if Foggy was the culprit, maybe he carried a larger weapon, even a wood carving tool, for personal protection?

A chisel would be most like a bayonet I think.

[Gary Barnett]

I would think so but what is the actual size of the instruments? I assume you are taking into account the general size of a bayonet of the time.

These tools look like they would be used for major wood carving, on buildings or furniture and such. I thought Foggy carved small things?

Since most of the wounds to Martha Tabram were done with a smaller knife, if Foggy was the culprit, maybe he carried a larger weapon, even a wood carving tool, for personal protection?

A chisel would be most like a bayonet I think.

The blades (is that the right term?) of those two tools are 5/6 in. Dr Killeen said he thought the injuries had been caused by ‘some kind of dagger’. The idea that they may have been caused by a bayonet seems to have attached itself in response to PP and PC Barratt’s soldier stories.

Would Foggy have had a proper set of woodcarving tools or a random collection of items he had picked up here and there?

[Edward Stow]

A dagger has a sharp point and sharp edges which facilitates deep stabbing.

'Is that a dagger I see before me?'

'No mate, it's a chisel.'

[Anna Morris]

The blades (is that the right term?) of those two tools are 5/6 in. Dr Killeen said he thought the injuries had been caused by ‘some kind of dagger’. The idea that they may have been caused by a bayonet seems to have attached itself in response to PP and PC Barratt’s soldier stories.

Would Foggy have had a proper set of woodcarving tools or a random collection of items he had picked up here and there?

You and I have had that discussion before as I had the idea that Foggy sometimes had worked on bigger projects and you thought his carving would have been smaller items. A lot probably depends on how blind was Foggy. By that I mean, a person can be legally blind, even functionally blind, but still have some vision. It depends on the cause of blindness. I have known people who could see very close objects. If they put their faces on a page of a large-type book, they could read, for instance. The same applies to simple crafts. These same people needed to use a cane or be assisted in walking.

I think Foggy would have had random tools. If he had a nice set, IMO, he would have sold it for money to survive.

I have seen many mentions over the years of vendors of knives, etc. in the East End. This keeps coming up in connection with trying to figure out where the killer of Tabram or even JtR himself obtained the weapons used. The short answer is many knives, bayonets, etc. were readily available.

Woodworking tools can also be created from other tools with hard metal that can be shaped and sharpened. The "bayonet" weapon used on Tabram could have been all sorts of things, even a heavy file, honed into a sharp weapon.

A way to obtain some good woodworking tools, at least in the last 30 years in USA, is if the--usually--wood handles have disintegrated or if there is other damage. Of course these are throw-away times. In 1888 London I would think such tools would have been repaired and kept.

Another possibility that could resemble a bayonet for the purpose of wounding might be stone cutters' chisels. I do not know much about stone carving but the tools are heavy.

In considering the "bayonet" wound to Tabram, it is a positive leap in research to consider other common tools of the time. In considering Foggy as assailant, we get an inkling of why the wild stabs all over the victim. Also in considering Foggy, companion then husband of Pearly Poll, we get an idea about the farce of her failed identifications of soldiers, her leaving the area, etc. Her actions reek of protecting someone.

I see a lot of sense in thinking Foggy may have killed Tabram. The tools pictured here appear to be heavy and I would not think they would be used in hand carving of small items. I see no reason why Foggy or any number of other people could not have carried such implements for work, protection or whatever.

[Gary Barnett]

Does anyone know the exact wording of Tom Cullen’s claim that James Bousfield possessed a ‘key chain’ that had been part of Martha Tabram’s stock?

Presumably there was some kind of a fob attached to the chain. Could it have been a crudely carved wooden one?

Over on Casebook, poster Barnaby just raised the subject of the key chain and that prompted me to have a look on Ancestry for the Bousfields.

There is an excellent Public Member Tree on there with a photos of James Bousfield and his father, Thomas. There is also a scan of the page in Cullen’s book which mentions the key chain.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/2866757/person/-1808903647/facts

[Edward Stow]

Jack the Whittler