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  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I know it's complex but, I've known the offspring of Irish parents who grew up in Wales and England, and they speak with Welsh and English accents. Some words tend to be pronounced in an Irish way, however - one that particularly sticks in my mind apropos the 2nd gen Irish people I know is that they pronounced "any/many" as "annie/manny" - but their accents undoubtedly reflect the region in which they were brought up.
    Did you ever drink with any of them in an Irish pub?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
      Did you ever drink with any of them in an Irish pub?
      No, and I don't see what that's got to do with it.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen"
      (F. Nietzsche)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
        Barnett mentions Kelly living with a man named ‘Morganstone’ and a ‘bad house’ (brothel) in Pennington Street - information presumably obtained from Kelly.

        Mrs ‘Phoenix’ (Elizabeth Felix) states that a woman named Mary Jane Kelly lived at her brother’s house in Breezer’s Hill/
        Pennington Street. Subsequent research reveals that her brother-in-law was Johannes Morganstern who at the time in question was living in a brothel on the corner of Breezers Hill and Pennington Street.

        A Press Association Reporter seeks out Kelly’s associates in the Highway and receives confirmation from a Mrs McCarthy that Kelly had lived in Breezer’s Hill. Mention is also made of a ‘Mrs Buki’. Subsequent research identifies her as Elizabeth Boekee the woman living at the time with Elizabeth Felix’s brother-in-law in the brothel on the corner of Breezer’s Hill and Pennington Street.
        And not one bit of thatindicates that Kellys tale was true.

        Never mind that the stuff that should be easy to corroborate like a brother in the army and a blown up husband......proved impossible to corroborate.

        The logical conclusion being that she was a liar.

        P

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
          Gareth,

          I know London-born people of Irish parents who have lived in England all their lives but who pronounce certain words in an Irish way, and PS raised the example of English-born travellers who sound very Irish.

          I know he’s not PC, but Jim Davidson used to tell the story about his mate ‘Chalky’ who greeted him in broad Jamaican and then reverted to Cockney.

          It’s a very complicated subject.

          Gary
          It is indeed, Gary.

          Everyone is different, so while someone might soak up the accent used by those around them like a sponge, the next person's accent may not change at all from early childhood. Rod Stewart's speaking voice - his "Lundun" accent - doesn't seem to have altered at all, despite the amount of time he has spent in the States over the years and the fact that his father was Scottish. He sings with an American accent but that's put on.

          My daughter's accent changed within weeks of starting school and she has sounded 'posh' ever since, but not neutral, and she's certainly not 'accentless' [whatever that's supposed to mean!]. She has a recognisable south London accent, picked up from her peers.

          I think it's utterly useless to speculate about MJK's accent, because we don't know a) how her peers spoke wherever and whenever she spent her formative years and b) she may have been a sponge, soaking up accents wherever she went, but she may not.

          She was not accentless, and I seriously doubt she learned to speak with a 'neutral' newsreader accent!

          Also, she didn't need to have been illiterate, or to pretend to be, for Barnett to have read aloud to her from the newspapers of the day. It was a common enough practice for the man of the house to do this while the woman did chores like mending.

          Love,

          Caz
          X
          I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            No, and I don't see what that's got to do with it.
            Then I’ll explain.

            I’m talking about 2nd gen. Irish with London accents, slightly different from mine, perhaps, but largely the same. But get them into a pub with their first generation parents and extended family, pour a few pints of Guinness down their necks, and suddenly they sound very Irish.

            A lot of people have more than one accent. I have one that I might use in a business meeting and other I use down the pub wiv me mates.

            I’ve worked with at least a couple of Welsh people whose accents I initially didn’t ‘get’ and one girl from Gloucestershire who I initially had pegged as Welsh. And I’ve watched every episode of Gavin and Stacey.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Caroline Brown View Post
              It is indeed, Gary.

              Everyone is different, so while someone might soak up the accent used by those around them like a sponge, the next person's accent may not change at all from early childhood. Rod Stewart's speaking voice - his "Lundun" accent - doesn't seem to have altered at all, despite the amount of time he has spent in the States over the years and the fact that his father was Scottish. He sings with an American accent but that's put on.

              My daughter's accent changed within weeks of starting school and she has sounded 'posh' ever since, but not neutral, and she's certainly not 'accentless' [whatever that's supposed to mean!]. She has a recognisable south London accent, picked up from her peers.

              I think it's utterly useless to speculate about MJK's accent, because we don't know a) how her peers spoke wherever and whenever she spent her formative years and b) she may have been a sponge, soaking up accents wherever she went, but she may not.

              She was not accentless, and I seriously doubt she learned to speak with a 'neutral' newsreader accent!

              Also, she didn't need to have been illiterate, or to pretend to be, for Barnett to have read aloud to her from the newspapers of the day. It was a common enough practice for the man of the house to do this while the woman did chores like mending.

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              Thanks, Caz.

              Another thing I recall from my schooldays is that some of the kids in our backstreet school spoke ‘nicely’ while others were proper cor blimey. The influence of their parents presumably, which resisted that of their peers.

              We have no idea where Kelly was educated, or what proportion of her schoolmates were native Welsh or Irish immigrants.

              Indeed we know so little about her upbringing that, as you say, it is useless to speculate or to draw any conclusions from the fact that her accent was never mentioned or that she could carry off an alternately Irish/Welsh back story.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
                And not one bit of thatindicates that Kellys tale was true.

                Never mind that the stuff that should be easy to corroborate like a brother in the army and a blown up husband......proved impossible to corroborate.

                The logical conclusion being that she was a liar.

                P
                Kelly told Barnett she lived with a man named ‘Morganstone’ near the gasworks and also in a brothel in Pennington Street.

                Mrs ‘Phoenix’, who lived with Adrianus Morgenstern near the gasworks, said Mary lived with her brother-in-law in Breezers Hill. Lo and behold, her ‘brother-in-law’, Johannes Morgenstern, lived in a brothel on the corner of Pennington Street and Breezer’s Hill with a woman named Boekee.

                The Press Association journalist found confirmation of Mary’s residence in Breezer’s Hill and her connection to a Mrs ‘Buki’ from Mrs McCarthy.

                What more do you want?

                Comment


                • I wonder whether there was was ever a case where a couple lived together as husband and wife for 1-2 years and the ‘wife’ regaled her partner ‘a hundred times’ with her life story, every single word of which was a lie.

                  That’s what some believe about MJK, even though Mrs Felix and Mrs McCarthy corroborated at least some of the story.

                  Comment


                  • One word (possibly two) separates the unsolved mystery of MJK from the solved mystery of Alice ‘McKenzie’ - Peterborough (postman).

                    If John McCormack hadn’t mentioned it, Alice’s ID would be unknown today. She lied - used an ‘alias’*, said she had a son in America and said all her family were dead - but she let slip that she had been born in Peterborough where her father had been a postman. In fact her father had several jobs and (from memory) only appeared as a post office messenger on one census.

                    As far as I’m aware, none of Alice’s family attended her funeral or sought publicity afterwards, despite her ID having been established in the local press in 1889.

                    * I compiled a list of 17 surnames used by or attributed to Alice Kinsey, née Pitts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                      Why do you believe Kelly to have been Irish descent?
                      Is it not safe to say that Mary Kelly was a real Irish lass and not an Irish wannabe?The City Missionary stated that she was of Irish descent. He is actually reported to have said "Irish parentage" which I guess is based on the story of the letters but there was nothing to dissuade him from believing the Irish family background. That's what I consider corroboration of an element of her origin story. Her family is originally Irish and that gives you a framework from the standpoint of immigration and therefore a clue to the likeliest places of birth.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                        Is it not safe to say that Mary Kelly was a real Irish lass and not an Irish wannabe?The City Missionary stated that she was of Irish descent. He is actually reported to have said "Irish parentage" which I guess is based on the story of the letters but there was nothing to dissuade him from believing the Irish family background. That's what I consider corroboration of an element of her origin story. Her family is originally Irish and that gives you a framework from the standpoint of immigration and therefore a clue to the likeliest places of birth.
                        So it came from what he was told by Mary. Why should we believe that more than the Welsh story she told?

                        My view is that her whole story is plausible, but that it probably contained a few untruths and/or misunderstandings by the people she told it to.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                          So it came from what he was told by Mary. Why should we believe that more than the Welsh story she told?
                          He did not corroborate her Welsh story, in fact he denied it categorically. Obviously, Mary didn't give him that Wales tale because he's not saying she tried to fool him. He said there was no reason for him to believe she was Welsh.

                          If anyone was authoritative on that, and I'm not saying anyone absolutely was, it would be someone who deals with people on a personal level. I also remember there being a couple of Welsh London City Missionaries in 1881 out of about a hundred, if that means anything.

                          But, as long as candidates aren't dismissed because of one unproven element or another, then I'm alright with any "candidate profile". It's a lot like "suspect theorizing" in Ripperology or "profile theorizing". Both have rabbit holes.
                          Last edited by Markus Aurelius Franzoi; February 17, 2019, 04:09 PM. Reason: Correction: Salvation Army had headquarters in Cardiff

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                            He did not corroborate her Welsh story, in fact he denied it categorically. Obviously, Mary didn't give him that Wales tale because he's not saying she tried to fool him. He said there was no reason for him to believe she was Welsh.

                            If anyone was authoritative on that, and I'm not saying anyone absolutely was, it would be someone who deals with people on a personal level. I also remember there being a couple of Welsh London City Missionaries in 1881 out of about a hundred and they had a headquarters in Cardiff, if that means anything.

                            But, as long as candidates aren't dismissed because of one unproven element or another, then I'm alright with any "candidate profile". It's a lot like "suspect theorizing" in Ripperology or "profile theorizing". Both have rabbit holes.
                            How could he possibly know that she hadn’t lived in Wales as a child? Do-gooders aren’t always street-wise.

                            Comment


                            • There was an unnamed female in a press account who said she had roomed with Mary and that Mary spoke fluent Welsh. For what it's worth.

                              There was also a certain level of Welsh missionary outreach in London. A long time ago I think I posted a clip--or if I wasn't smart enough to do that I described and sourced the event--about a Welsh group in London putting on a holiday tea for the poor of the East End. If I remember correctly there were meat pies given out or something substantial like that. It sounded very nice. This was in the Welsh papers.

                              I wondered at the time if Mary ever went to anything like that. We don't seem to have any indication that Mary may have approached 'fellow' Welsh people for aid. Many think she got help from the Catholic organisation and from the city missionaries. I don't think we have anything suggesting she ever approached aid based on nationality. Which does not mean much in the end but it is something to think about.

                              Another way to look at Mary's background is through knowledge of the Halket Street Kellies in Cardiff. It was a large family with two or more branches combined at times. Kids at least once in industrial or training school, implication being that the mother had died or left the home. Apparent comings and goings to and from Ireland. I still like these people as a possibility for Mary's family. I think Gareth did the original work on finding and developing this family.

                              If Mary was not a member of this family perhaps her family was similar. The Halket Street Kellies could fit with Mary's story but we have never been able to make all the pieces fit.
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                                Kelly told Barnett she lived with a man named ‘Morganstone’ near the gasworks and also in a brothel in Pennington Street.

                                Mrs ‘Phoenix’, who lived with Adrianus Morgenstern near the gasworks, said Mary lived with her brother-in-law in Breezers Hill. Lo and behold, her ‘brother-in-law’, Johannes Morgenstern, lived in a brothel on the corner of Pennington Street and Breezer’s Hill with a woman named Boekee.

                                The Press Association journalist found confirmation of Mary’s residence in Breezer’s Hill and her connection to a Mrs ‘Buki’ from Mrs McCarthy.

                                What more do you want?
                                One of her six brothers.

                                Evidence of a blown up husband.

                                Evidence of her brother in the army.

                                Or her mother.

                                Or her being an accomplushed artist.

                                Or a scholar.

                                Or being from Ireland.

                                Or having been in Wales.

                                You know.......the stuff that actually matters.

                                P

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