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  • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
    It's a (possible) marriage, Gary. But it was just plain Mary Kelly in the register.
    I wonder if he was, or was related to, the William Wigley who was killed in a mining accident in Llanelli in 1881?

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    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
      Mary Jane Kelly
      William Wigley
      Merthyr T.
      1878


      I didn’t ask him about it and I haven’t followed it up, but I thought I’d mention it.
      It seems that there was a William Wigley who was a precentor at Tabor Congregational Church in Maesycwmmer - 13 miles from Merthyr - at some point in the 19th Century. Only a quick Google search, so no further details, but it's a fairly unusual name.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen"
      (F. Nietzsche)

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      • I tried a search for ‘Wigley’ on here and Casebook before I posted my find.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
          Its also true to say that the details of Kellys story were so specific - 6 brothers, blown up husband, brother in the army, etc etc. - that even had the name been made up, that family and friends would have recognised the girl from teh details.
          Maybe so, Mr. P.

          But put yourself in the position of a brother, who may have become estranged from a sister years previously and had no idea if she was still living, never mind where she was on the planet, or what her circumstances might be.

          Would all the sensational publicity, surrounding a lowly Whitechapel prostitute, who had been ripped to bits in her tiny hovel by an unknown killer, have tempted you out of your relatively safe, comfortable and anonymous existence, to claim kinship with the victim, if the names Mary Kelly and Joe Barnett meant precisely nothing to you, and you had perhaps only ever known your sister as Irene O'Reilly or Myfanwy Evans?

          Really?

          You ask why shame or embarrassment - or any other consideration - would have kept Ms O'Reilly's or Ms Evans's relatives from coming out of the woodwork to admit that she had almost certainly ended up as this murdered prostitute known as Mary Kelly.

          But I would turn the question round and ask why you think they would have come forward under those circumstances, even assuming the details broadcast about this Mary Kelly's early life and family rang a bell that was too much for coincidence? It wouldn't have been a particularly comfortable bell, would it? Half a dozen burly brothers who had done nothing to protect their poor weak sister from such a dreadful fate? The newspapers would have had a field day with that one, with or without a shred of truth attached.

          Imagine the victim died last week, and was not a prostitute called Mary Kelly but a drug addict and rent boy, only known as Harry Bowlocks, and left virtually unrecognisable. You strongly suspect from other published details that his real name was none other than Four Poster, long lost younger brother of Mr. and Miss Poster, and cousin to Beatles Poster. What would send any of you rushing to make sure the historians and researchers would be equipped with all they needed to know about the real Harry Bowlocks and family?

          Love,

          Caz
          X
          I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            It seems that there was a William Wigley who was a precentor at Tabor Congregational Church in Maesycwmmer - 13 miles from Merthyr - at some point in the 19th Century. Only a quick Google search, so no further details, but it's a fairly unusual name.
            Thanks, Gareth.

            Here’s the mining incident. The victim was 50 years old in 1881.

            Click image for larger version

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            • If I find anything more on Wigley, I’ll open a new thread.


              I wonder how many East End ‘unfortunates’ with no connection to Wales had even heard of Carmarthen/Canarvon or knew that there were iron works and coal mines in Wales?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                If I find anything more on Wigley, I’ll open a new thread.


                I wonder how many East End ‘unfortunates’ with no connection to Wales had even heard of Carmarthen/Canarvon or knew that there were iron works and coal mines in Wales?
                I think that Welsh coalmines, at least, would have been known about, and possibly the ironworks, due to Wales having achieved "fame" in those industries during the Industrial Revolution. Likewise, the ports that served them - Cardiff, Newport, Swansea - and possibly the industrial giant that was Merthyr Tydfil, would have been heard about outside Wales.

                On the other hand, Carmarthen and Caernarfon were/are small, ostensibly rural towns, hardly "famous" for anything on the global stage, and arguably less widely known. That said, Barnett seems to have known sufficient about them to have been unsure as to which one Kelly meant - unless that uncertainty came about by accident, e.g.

                Copper: "Did you say Carmarthen or Caernarfon?"

                Barnett: "Eh? You mean there's two of 'em?"
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen"
                (F. Nietzsche)

                Comment


                • Maybe so, Mr. P.

                  But put yourself in the position of a brother, who may have become estranged from a sister years previously and had no idea if she was still living, never mind where she was on the planet, or what her circumstances might be.

                  Would all the sensational publicity, surrounding a lowly Whitechapel prostitute, who had been ripped to bits in her tiny hovel by an unknown killer, have tempted you out of your relatively safe, comfortable and anonymous existence, to claim kinship with the victim, if the names Mary Kelly and Joe Barnett meant precisely nothing to you, and you had perhaps only ever known your sister as Irene O'Reilly or Myfanwy Evans?

                  Really?
                  7 brothers Caz. Not one. You think its a likely proposition that all 7 of them were estranged?

                  Mary kelly and Barnett may have meant nothing to them. But an Irish girl with 7 brothers, one in a named regiment and a blown up husband called Davies or whatever.....you might think that irrespecetive of the name...that description might alert one of teh seven?

                  Assuming any of it was true of course (which it wasnt in all liklihood)

                  You ask why shame or embarrassment - or any other consideration - would have kept Ms O'Reilly's or Ms Evans's relatives from coming out of the woodwork to admit that she had almost certainly ended up as this murdered prostitute known as Mary Kelly.

                  But I would turn the question round and ask why you think they would have come forward under those circumstances, even assuming the details broadcast about this Mary Kelly's early life and family rang a bell that was too much for coincidence? It wouldn't have been a particularly comfortable bell, would it? Half a dozen burly brothers who had done nothing to protect their poor weak sister from such a dreadful fate? The newspapers would have had a field day with that one, with or without a shred of truth attached.
                  No offence Caz ... but thats one of the weakest arguments Ive heard put forward.

                  And all it takes for me is to say.... all 7 of them? really...they all collectively felt that way? All 7 of them?

                  Assuming there was 7 at all. Not to mention her stage trotting sister.


                  Imagine the victim died last week, and was not a prostitute called Mary Kelly but a drug addict and rent boy, only known as Harry Bowlocks, and left virtually unrecognisable. You strongly suspect from other published details that his real name was none other than Four Poster, long lost younger brother of Mr. and Miss Poster, and cousin to Beatles Poster. What would send any of you rushing to make sure the historians and researchers would be equipped with all they needed to know about the real Harry Bowlocks and family?
                  Ddidnt seem to stop relatives of other victims coming forward. Women being portrayed in an altogether less rosy light than was the case for Kelly.

                  Doesnt matter really what argument is put forward as to why nobody came forward.

                  The argument heads straight for the dustbin when one is asked to consider that all 7 of the brothers felt the same way and never wavered.

                  All of them. Not one blackleg amongst them. All 7. Even the one serving with a named army unit. Who one would think the police/press could have found.

                  Or maybe they just didnt exist at all. Like Stride getting kicked in the teeth while shinning her way up the mast of a sinking ship.

                  Which do you think is most likely?

                  P

                  Comment


                  • If I find anything more on Wigley, I’ll open a new thread.
                    It might be Worth doing if his names was Davies or something.

                    P

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
                      It might be Worth doing if his names was Davies or something.

                      P
                      I think the mining accident may have been at St David’s Colliery and there seems to have been an ironworks nearby.

                      But this must have been researched before, right? Because all possible leads have been exhausted, haven’t they?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
                        And all it takes for me is to say.... all 7 of them? really...they all collectively felt that way? All 7 of them?
                        Depends whether they read the (London) Daily/Evening News, (London) Echo or (London) Star, which seem to be the only papers that mention seven brothers, and even they only mention it once.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen"
                        (F. Nietzsche)

                        Comment


                        • In relation to a woman called Mary Jane Kelly having lived out a life as we are led to believe she did.....I would think yes.

                          Its time to draw a line under it. Unless one wants to continue for another century. For some purpose or other.

                          Maybe she got the army regiment name as well?

                          Or people just misheard and her name was actually Mary Wayne Crilly?

                          Or she had 7 nephews, not brothers.

                          Or her husband got killed in a quarry and people just thought it was a coal mine.

                          P

                          Comment


                          • Barnett made a comment about Kelly having told him something ‘a hundred times’, didn’t he? Sounds like she had more rabbit than Sainsbury’s.

                            And what do men do when their womenfolk go on and on? They switch off, that’s what they do. Mrs B often catches me out when I’m nodding in response to something she’s saying but am clearly not listening. ‘What did I just say?’ she will ask, and I’m rumbled.

                            There’s probably a combination of truth, lies, fantasy and mishearing in the story Barnett told. He wasn’t even sure if it was Carmarthen or Carnavon. I doubt he could have pointed either of them out on the map - he probably wouldn’t have been too sure where Wales was. But he got Pennington Street right. Why? Because he’d been brought up nearby.

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                            • Tuned out nice again!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                                Barnett made a comment about Kelly having told him something ‘a hundred times’, didn’t he? Sounds like she had more rabbit than Sainsbury’s.

                                And what do men do when their womenfolk go on and on? They switch off, that’s what they do. Mrs B often catches me out when I’m nodding in response to something she’s saying but am clearly not listening. ‘What did I just say?’ she will ask, and I’m rumbled.

                                There’s probably a combination of truth, lies, fantasy and mishearing in the story Barnett told. He wasn’t even sure if it was Carmarthen or Carnavon. I doubt he could have pointed either of them out on the map - he probably wouldn’t have been too sure where Wales was. But he got Pennington Street right. Why? Because he’d been brought up nearby.
                                You know....that could be it. He tuned out as she rabbited on. Misheard some things. Wasnt familiar with place names.

                                Or.....like other prostitutes did.......she made it up.

                                I know which one is most logical, most coherent with facts. The two most important facts being.....no evidence of her tale or Mary Kelly having been found in a century and alchoholic prostitutes of the time had aliases and told lies.

                                Simples.

                                P

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