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  • Interesting, Debra and Gary. (Over here it seems the government has started telling us what we will be called. I have four Christian names and dropped one of them when the computer systems didn't deal well with four names. Now I have a terrible mess!)

    I have felt for a long time that MJK's family was contacted in 1888. If they were and they said she was born Mary Jane _________, not Kelly or Davies, would that have constituted a third entry in the index?

    My ultimate points are: If I/we choose to believe family was actually reached, the lack of a third entry would indicate MJ was actually Kelly or Davies?

    Only Joe B. seemed to know about a marriage to Davis or Davies. No one else knew her by that name and Joe said she only used her "maiden name" of Kelly. Does the second entry, M. J. Davies signify anything, like it was found somewhere in her past that she ACTUALLY used that name?

    (Out of curiosity, what if MJK had spun a yarn about being married to a "gentleman" in France, say by the name of Verney? If she never used the name and only Joe knew the story, would officialdom have issued a record reflecting an idle tale? Going further, it was known that Kate Eddowes actually lived with her John Kelly.)

    Or would information from her most recent associations have trumped information from deep in her past, perhaps away from London, for instance Cardiff?
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
      Interesting, Debra and Gary. (Over here it seems the government has started telling us what we will be called. I have four Christian names and dropped one of them when the computer systems didn't deal well with four names. Now I have a terrible mess!)

      I have felt for a long time that MJK's family was contacted in 1888. If they were and they said she was born Mary Jane _________, not Kelly or Davies, would that have constituted a third entry in the index?

      My ultimate points are: If I/we choose to believe family was actually reached, the lack of a third entry would indicate MJ was actually Kelly or Davies?

      Only Joe B. seemed to know about a marriage to Davis or Davies. No one else knew her by that name and Joe said she only used her "maiden name" of Kelly. Does the second entry, M. J. Davies signify anything, like it was found somewhere in her past that she ACTUALLY used that name?

      (Out of curiosity, what if MJK had spun a yarn about being married to a "gentleman" in France, say by the name of Verney? If she never used the name and only Joe knew the story, would officialdom have issued a record reflecting an idle tale? Going further, it was known that Kate Eddowes actually lived with her John Kelly.)

      Or would information from her most recent associations have trumped information from deep in her past, perhaps away from London, for instance Cardiff?
      If MJK's family had come forward and identified her before the end of the inquest, giving a different name, then that should have been legally recorded on the death certificate. We've had discussions somewhere on the forums before on the subject of whether or not a death certificate can be amended after burial. It's a curious fact though that even though Catherine (Rose) Mylett's mother identified her as Catherine Mylett at the inquest, Catherine's death certificate is made out in the name of Elizabeth Mylett.

      Maybe Joe was treated as MJK's 'next of kin' in the absence of any other family but, I think, as Joe had stated in his sworn evidence at the inquest that MJK told him she had been married to a collier named Davies then that name was included. The multiple index entries for both MJK and Catherine Eddowes reflect the information on one death certificate.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
        As I recall, MJK had two death certificates made — one with the name Marie Jeanette Davies and one, Mary Jane Kelly.

        As for her background story, there are many reasons to lie — to appear younger, tougher, more sympathetic, or more exotic. If she was using her real name and therefore not really concealing her identity, just eliminate anything that might be added for those other reasons, then you have the kernel of truth.
        The way SF words his first sentence gives the impression that MJK was responsible for the two certs being made. But then his MJK was still alive after she had died.��

        Comment


        • Here's another French Connection (to coin a phrase) from an 1828 translation of the memoirs of Casanova:

          “Je vous comprends. Vous voulez une scène de comédie dans le goût de celles dont Lopez de Vega Carpio assaisonnait ses pièces, par exemple son Roi Jonto.” (“I understand you. You want a comedy scene in the style of how Lopez de Vega Carpio flavoured his pieces, for example his King Jonto"). A "König Jonto" turns up in a German translation of said memoirs, published in 1826, and of course he's called "Ré Jonto" in the original Italian version.

          Probably spurious, but at least it shows that a similar version of Kelly's brother's nickname was "out there" in the 19th Century, even in literary circles.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen"
          (F. Nietzsche)

          Comment


          • The Daily Herald, 18th April 1936, reported that Frank Williams, an Eccles man, told the Salford Coroner that he had identified the body of his wife on Jan 1st, but had just met her in Eccles!


            The Coroner said that he would get the death cert amended and the dead woman, whoever she was, would be entered in the death register as an unknown woman.


            There is one unknown woman registered Salford Q1 1936, and she has no age. The reference is 8d 526a. This seems to correspond to Ethel Williams, Q1 1936 Salford, age 20, 8d 526. Perhaps the 'a' for the unknown woman signifies 'amended.' There aren't any Salford Unknown women for Q2 Salford. Perhaps the Q1 list hadn't yet been printed up when Williams made his declaration, so no need for footnotes and margin notes about the unknown woman. But in that case, why was Ethel in the Q1 register?


            A Frank Williams married an Ethel Yates in Barton-Upon-Irwell 1933.


            I don't know what the procedure was in 1888.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              Here's another French Connection (to coin a phrase) from an 1828 translation of the memoirs of Casanova:

              “Je vous comprends. Vous voulez une scène de comédie dans le goût de celles dont Lopez de Vega Carpio assaisonnait ses pièces, par exemple son Roi Jonto.” (“I understand you. You want a comedy scene in the style of how Lopez de Vega Carpio flavoured his pieces, for example his King Jonto"). A "König Jonto" turns up in a German translation of said memoirs, published in 1826, and of course he's called "Ré Jonto" in the original Italian version.

              Probably spurious, but at least it shows that a similar version of Kelly's brother's nickname was "out there" in the 19th Century, even in literary circles.
              Thanks, Gareth. I think there were at least a couple of other 19thC Johnto/Jontos, one a troublesome tramp and another a race walker cum boxing trainer.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                Thanks, Gareth. I think there were at least a couple of other 19thC Johnto/Jontos, one a troublesome tramp and another a race walker cum boxing trainer.
                Not a unique name, then, but perhaps sufficiently "niche" for it not to have been made up by Mary Kelly.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen"
                (F. Nietzsche)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                  The Daily Herald, 18th April 1936, reported that Frank Williams, an Eccles man, told the Salford Coroner that he had identified the body of his wife on Jan 1st, but had just met her in Eccles!


                  The Coroner said that he would get the death cert amended and the dead woman, whoever she was, would be entered in the death register as an unknown woman.


                  There is one unknown woman registered Salford Q1 1936, and she has no age. The reference is 8d 526a. This seems to correspond to Ethel Williams, Q1 1936 Salford, age 20, 8d 526. Perhaps the 'a' for the unknown woman signifies 'amended.' There aren't any Salford Unknown women for Q2 Salford. Perhaps the Q1 list hadn't yet been printed up when Williams made his declaration, so no need for footnotes and margin notes about the unknown woman. But in that case, why was Ethel in the Q1 register?


                  A Frank Williams married an Ethel Yates in Barton-Upon-Irwell 1933.


                  I don't know what the procedure was in 1888.
                  Thanks for that, Robert. I wonder if Frank Williams explained his mistake to the coroner at the actual inquest but after a death certificate in the name of Ethel had already been issued? In that case, would they maybe just amend the death entry in the register but not be able to change the fact that it had originally been issued under another name? Or am I misunderstanding?

                  Comment


                  • Hi Debs


                    What seems to have happened is that Ethel disappeared in October, and got a job in Manchester. Thereafter she was afraid to go back home. She didn't read the newspapers and didn't know that 'she' had been fished out of a river and identified by her husband on Jan 1st.


                    During the next few weeks Frank regularly visited 'her' grave, until Ethel got homesick and went back to Eccles to find him, which she did on Monday April 13th.


                    As far as I can see Ethel is in the death registers, Q1 1936, Salford, and there are no pencilled footnotes or asterisks or anything like that.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                      The way SF words his first sentence gives the impression that MJK was responsible for the two certs being made. But then his MJK was still alive after she had died.��
                      Okay. The one death certificate for Marie Jeanette Kelly Otherwise Davies generates two BMD records but is still one certificate.

                      But I don't know how you can still have a measure of absolute faith in a death certificate when it's obviously now being pointed out it's based solely on the word of a presumptive or real and presumed-to-be-honest and knowledgeable and correctly informed "next of kin".

                      Are we going to assume her birth name was Marie Jeanette and there really is a collier husband named Davies based on this public record?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        The way SF words his first sentence gives the impression that MJK was responsible for the two certs being made.
                        Actually, as you know, that would have made three.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                          Okay. The one death certificate for Marie Jeanette Kelly Otherwise Davies generates two BMD records but is still one certificate.

                          But I don’t know how you can still have a measure of absolute faith in a death certificate when it’s obviously now being pointed out it’s based solely on the word of a presumptive or real and presumed-to-be-honest and knowledgeable and correctly informed “next of kin”.

                          Are we going to assume her birth name was Marie Jeanette and there really is a collier husband named Davies based on this public record?
                          The one entry for MJK in the death register generates two entries in the BMD index. A certificate is a copy of an entry in the register.
                          The accuracy of the entry depends on the informant. In MJK's case it was the coroner.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                            Hi Debs


                            What seems to have happened is that Ethel disappeared in October, and got a job in Manchester. Thereafter she was afraid to go back home. She didn't read the newspapers and didn't know that 'she' had been fished out of a river and identified by her husband on Jan 1st.


                            During the next few weeks Frank regularly visited 'her' grave, until Ethel got homesick and went back to Eccles to find him, which she did on Monday April 13th.


                            As far as I can see Ethel is in the death registers, Q1 1936, Salford, and there are no pencilled footnotes or asterisks or anything like that.
                            Thanks, Robert.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                              Maybe Joe was treated as MJK's 'next of kin' in the absence of any other family but, I think, as Joe had stated in his sworn evidence at the inquest that MJK told him she had been married to a collier named Davies then that name was included. The multiple index entries for both MJK and Catherine Eddowes reflect the information on one death certificate.
                              I'm realizing that the certificates are copies of records. Hense I no longer do handwriting analysis on the X marks!

                              But the recorded informers are not very informative regarding identity, even if they are coroners, or workhouse matrons, when they don't even know the person. Neither it appears are their informers when they hardly know the deceased either.

                              Comment


                              • Because I am a glutton for punishment, I once again researched Mary Jane Kelly in my poor resources. I found something of interest though I do not think it is MJK. I think there are other examples similar to this but I did not find any today.

                                I kept remembering that Joe Barnett said Marie Jeanette Kelly was MJK's "maiden name". I could not find that specific comment in the sources I regularly use but I did find it in a Welsh newspaper article today. I think in more official sources he also noted that Marie Jeanette was with the French spelling.

                                But I got to thinking, as was said to me years ago, Mary can sound like Marie in some British accents. I also learned a while back that Jeanette can be spelled various ways in old UK records and that there is a surname Jennet with various spellings. Anyway, the question I asked myself today was, could MJK have maybe had a French mother, that perhaps, hopefully, she could have been named for her mother? I did not get a positive answer to that but found this other thing I'll try to post.Click image for larger version  Name:	FreeBMD - Search.png Views:	0 Size:	28.9 KB ID:	579180
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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