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  • Who is Debbie McCauley?


    Marie Jeanette “Mary Jane” Kelly (1863-1888) - Find A Grave Memorial

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    • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
      If Mary didn't come forward and just disappeared, then wouldn't she have been using a situation as an unintended, virtual pseudocide?
      I'm viewing this as the 'real' Mary had no clue she was being impersonated beyond a very common name being the same.

      The Mary Jane Kelly Survived Theory has always been a part of MJK lore. People think it's part of the "romanticization" of MJK.
      At some point, we might need to face the reality that the victim's name was not her birth name, we have all the time in the world, there's no rush.
      Eventually though, unless she does turn up in a record, it will be necessary to look at realistic alternatives. The reason 'why' any woman would take a false name is not in its self mysterious. The reason 'why' this victim took that particular woman's name might be a clue to who she really was. That is really all I am getting at.
      I'm sure there's a Holmsian quote befitting this scenario....


      MJW theory has been shunted because of a disbelief in pseudocide and fraud against the public record. Now we are talking about disregarding the public record and accepting theories that don't accord with that public record.
      You lost me there

      Regards, Jon S.
      "
      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
        Someone who has Googled the WM from New Zealand and feels she has a responsibility to create a record for them on Find A Grave.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

          Someone who has Googled the WM from New Zealand and feels she has a responsibility to create a record for them on Find A Grave.
          Fair enough, but it states the original creator of the page was a Michael Dunne (no profile available), circa 2008, so presumably Ms. M. is just maintaining a page originally created by him (?)

          It's a bit disconcerting that this info readily pops up during a 'normal' search on Ancestry.com, which has tens of thousands of paid users.

          As such, I would have thought this unexplained 'candidate,' complete with specific dates and a photograph, would have left a bigger carbon footprint in cyberspace. But no; as far as I can tell, not even a mention by an unsuspecting newbie on Casebook anytime over the past thirteen years.

          Maybe a private hoax that never caught on?

          The photograph is a little more convincing than others I've seen. A reverse image search doesn't readily find it elsewhere on the web, and it's usually a very simple matter to find the original, if someone just snatched up an old photograph off the web, as we see in various false Strides, Eddowes, Tabrams, etc.

          I guess it does state that McCauley "added" the photo. I'll file it alongside Zelda Hammersmith for the time being.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
            You lost me there
            Sorry, I'm just agreeing with not making assumptions based on public records. If you recall the statement you quoted, it went, "Are we going to assume she's Marie Jeanette/Davies just because that's what it says on a death certificate?" The same would apply to any witness testimony about her name and/or origin.

            I used an MJK candidate as an example. I was debating two issues and fighting on two fronts at the same time.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
              At some point, we might need to face the reality that the victim's name was not her birth name, we have all the time in the world, there's no rush.
              Eventually though, unless she does turn up in a record, it will be necessary to look at realistic alternatives.
              I think it's fair to say that not even close to all the Mary Jane Kelly's in England b. c. 1863 have been investigated although there's definitely not more than 100 and Ancestry now automatically helps with "matching" cross-references.

              So there's no "reality" yet to face. Until that is done. And even afterward, as Chris said, because of gaps in the records and the entries. I'll grant you "facing the reality" with "Mary Jane Kelly" and Wales.

              No rush?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                Fair enough, but it states the original creator of the page was a Michael Dunne (no profile available), circa 2008, so presumably Ms. M. is just maintaining a page originally created by him (?)

                It's a bit disconcerting that this info readily pops up during a 'normal' search on Ancestry.com, which has tens of thousands of paid users.

                As such, I would have thought this unexplained 'candidate,' complete with specific dates and a photograph, would have left a bigger carbon footprint in cyberspace. But no; as far as I can tell, not even a mention by an unsuspecting newbie on Casebook anytime over the past thirteen years.

                Maybe a private hoax that never caught on?

                The photograph is a little more convincing than others I've seen. A reverse image search doesn't readily find it elsewhere on the web, and it's usually a very simple matter to find the original, if someone just snatched up an old photograph off the web, as we see in various false Strides, Eddowes, Tabrams, etc.

                I guess it does state that McCauley "added" the photo. I'll file it alongside Zelda Hammersmith for the time being.
                I see she does have a blog with a contact page, so it might be possible to find out where the photo (and possibly some of the details in the biography) came from:
                https://debbiemccauleyauthor.wordpress.com/

                If no one else fancies trying, I'll volunteer.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                  Fair enough, but it states the original creator of the page was a Michael Dunne (no profile available), circa 2008, so presumably Ms. M. is just maintaining a page originally created by him (?)

                  It's a bit disconcerting that this info readily pops up during a 'normal' search on Ancestry.com, which has tens of thousands of paid users.

                  As such, I would have thought this unexplained 'candidate,' complete with specific dates and a photograph, would have left a bigger carbon footprint in cyberspace. But no; as far as I can tell, not even a mention by an unsuspecting newbie on Casebook anytime over the past thirteen years.

                  Maybe a private hoax that never caught on?

                  The photograph is a little more convincing than others I've seen. A reverse image search doesn't readily find it elsewhere on the web, and it's usually a very simple matter to find the original, if someone just snatched up an old photograph off the web, as we see in various false Strides, Eddowes, Tabrams, etc.

                  I guess it does state that McCauley "added" the photo. I'll file it alongside Zelda Hammersmith for the time being.
                  You’re right, RJ, I should have said that she is maintaining the record rather than that she created it. She’s recently added a biography of Alice Mckenzie to the site, kindly acknowledging me as a source for some of it. Unless she had a similar eureka moment on independently discovering the Peterborough Advertiser pieces about Alice’s background, I would imagine she obtained almost all of her info about her from either here or CB.


                  I haven’t checked, but perhaps she has added info about other victims.


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                    I see she does have a blog with a contact page, so it might be possible to find out where the photo (and possibly some of the details in the biography) came from:
                    https://debbiemccauleyauthor.wordpress.com/

                    If no one else fancies trying, I'll volunteer.
                    It can’t do any harm, Chris.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                      I see she does have a blog with a contact page, so it might be possible to find out where the photo (and possibly some of the details in the biography) came from:
                      https://debbiemccauleyauthor.wordpress.com/

                      If no one else fancies trying, I'll volunteer.
                      I already sent her an email yesterday, asking if she had any information on Michael Dunne's sources, or the photograph, but haven't yet heard back.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                        Eventually though, unless she does turn up in a record, it will be necessary to look at realistic alternatives. The reason 'why' any woman would take a false name is not in its self mysterious. The reason 'why' this victim took that particular woman's name might be a clue to who she really was.
                        Hi Wick. I agree with your reasoning, but the trouble is if 'Kelly' simply invented her links to Limerick, Wales, and 'Davies,' how would you ever conclusively prove you had the right woman? If the reference points are invented, you are left with no reference points to prove your case.

                        I suppose your hope would be to find a woman named 'Anne O'Connor' or some such name, with similar biographical details, with a link to Breezer's Hill, but would you be convinced by your own theory?

                        In an idle moment I was thinking along similar lines, speculating that maybe the name Marie or Mary Jeanette had been 'borrowed' from someone in her community. Maybe someone she liked or respected.

                        There are not a heck of a lot of women with that name in the UK, though, of course, many records don't include middle-names.

                        There was a Mary Jeanette Jones living in Nevin, Caernarvonshire in the late 1880s, early 1890s, roughly same age as Kelly. She was, coincidentally, the wife of the local registrar of births, deaths, marriages, and vaccinations. She was also living next to a family named Davies.

                        A sly woman who was changing her identity might have thought it a private joke to borrow that name of the registrar's wife, but again, how could you hope to prove it?

                        It doesn't take long before you realize you're on a fool's errand. You're left with no way to gain your footing.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                          I already sent her an email yesterday, asking if she had any information on Michael Dunne's sources, or the photograph, but haven't yet heard back.

                          Comment


                          • There’s a precarious foothold or two in respect of a woman who had the name Jane, who was living at 79, Pennington Street in early 1885 and who moved to Station Place, not far from the Commercial Gasworks, later that year. Station Place was a short narrow street of brothels that had housed ‘a’ (although not conclusively ‘the’) Maria Harvey.



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                            • Joe Barnett had the longest and most intimate contact with MJK of anyone in the record. He may or may not have heard the truth or been able to accurately share details but he was with her for about 18 months. That is enough time for Mary to have let slip little details, even if she invented some of it.

                              I used to have romantic ideas about MJK being Marie Jeanette. My own name is fairly long and complicated with a saint's name and I was thinking along personal lines. I am a better researcher now but I still think there is something to Marie Jeanette though I doubt that is the correct spelling. I don't have Ancestry and so am still operating from various free sources.

                              I doubt the surname Kelly and Davies, if applicable, could be spelled a number of ways or David, Davey, Davis could have been a first name of her husband if she was actually married. (I have searched those paths too and come up with nothing.)

                              Concerning an alias, Mrs. Maxwell was cautioned and still insistent that she had seen MJK in the mid-morning when Mary must already have been dead. I had wondered if Mrs. Maxwell was mentally off or a heavy drinker or what, but it looks like Debra found her and she seemed to be a respectable woman. So, how many Mary Jane Kellies were floating around Dorset Street? Other research has indicated Kelly was a good choice for an alias.

                              If Mary came from a poor background, for instance like the Halkett Street Kellies, maybe she was given incorrect information by her family. For instance, maybe she was born at home in Wales but told she was born in Ireland.

                              I find importance too, in Barnett saying Mary had been in a hospital in Cardiff for quite some time. The Contagious Diseases act was not repealed until 1886 and I assume it would have been in effect when Mary and her cousin may have been pursuing the "bad life" in Cardiff. I would sure like to find records from there covering relative times.* If Mary was detained for that cause, it would be a good reason to change her name. (For what it's worth, French prostitution was regulated to prevent contagious diseases. Maybe the mere idea of getting detained because of STD was enough for Mary to scurry back to England.) Might we wonder if Mary was quarantined under the act and changed her name after release?

                              *Interestingly, the Welsh papers had front page coverage of folks quarantined for the bad contagious diseases of the day like diptheria, smallpox, etc. I have spent a lot of time looking at those records.

                              One other thing about Joe B.'s narration gets my attention. He never mentioned Mary's mother in any capacity. A young woman would be likely to mention her mother if she had one. It could be about a way to cook or sew, a favorite food from childhood, a cherished memento. Mary apparently mentioned a sister who travelled about and sold things. There were enough women matching that description that it is impossible to sort out.

                              Finally, I have a deep feeling that Marie Jeanette, Mary Jannet or whatever, was something personal to Mary. I don't think it was the Continental rendering of Mary Jane, nor do I think it was based on a Catholic Church Latin recording of her name. Maybe it could have been a new alias obtained or encouraged by the Morgenstern clan. Depending upon what 'living with Morganstone' actually meant, if there was a close relationship, maybe he--whoever he was--called her Marie Jeanette. That name is fairly easy to find in Dutch records. Morgansterns had ties to Belgium so Barnett saying Mary's name was with the French spelling could trace back to that. OR, her birth name was some form of Marie/Mary Janet/Jeanette. I don't think the spelling of Mary/Marie is very important since Barnett was going on sound alone, but Jeanette might offer a clew.

                              Maybe those familiar with British pronunciation can expand the search farther. There are some pronunciations I really do not understand. For instance, how did the historic palace Beaulieu come to be pronounced BEW-lee? I could see BO-loo or something. Elvis Presley's wife's maiden name is spelled the same and it was never pronounced Bewlee. Even with Old English before spelling was invented, I don't understand the Bewly pronunciation. So how many ways can we spell or pronounce Jeanette?
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                              Comment


                              • Again, virtually none, if any, of the MJK research is actually done based on the name. It’s based on mine explosions, Davies and Scots Guards with Irish names.

                                What do you make of that as a main line of research?

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