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  • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

    Hi Wick. I agree with your reasoning, but the trouble is if 'Kelly' simply invented her links to Limerick, Wales, and 'Davies,' how would you ever conclusively prove you had the right woman? If the reference points are invented, you are left with no reference points to prove your case.
    Hi RJ.
    I try to distinguish between the real MJK, and the Victim, by using those exact terms.

    I have not questioned the background story told by the Victim, as far as I am concerned the Victim was aware of this biography from MJK herself.
    Obviously, I could be way off mark here, I know that.
    For the victim to know so much about MJK they would have to be close, or had been close at one time.
    I don't doubt for one minute some details recalled by Barnett & others may contain errors, that is just to be expected. It doesn't mean the story is a lie.
    Therefore, if the victim was able to recount a life in Limerick, a move to Wales, possibly spending some time down in Cardiff, then the relationship between the victim & MJK must have been close.
    A cousin would likely know most of that information, a close friend might too, but a relative is just at the top of the list in my conjecture.

    I suppose your hope would be to find a woman named 'Anne O'Connor' or some such name, with similar biographical details, with a link to Breezer's Hill, but would you be convinced by your own theory?
    I'm not discounting the name Kelly.
    Lets suppose MJK's father had a brother, then this cousin would also be a Kelly. But, it could be MJK's mother had a brother or sister, so the name of the victim would not be Kelly.

    I have been looking through Ancestry for such relationships, as you can imagine it will be a huge undertaking.
    I need a start point, which may not be as daunting as first thought.
    For instance (assuming my scenario has some credence), the victim has already told us she had one sister, and seven brothers, one of the brothers lived in London. One of the brothers was called John - like his father.
    Two questions come to mind.
    1 - How many of those details fit any 'known' Mary Kelly's?
    2 - How many of those details are correct?
    The victim may have thrown a few elaborations in herself.

    I had to pick one of the known Mary Kelly's who records show had one sister & seven brothers, who had been born in Ireland, and the whole family moved to Wales, so that was my starting point. I may never find a cousin for this Mary, she may not have had one.


    In an idle moment I was thinking along similar lines, speculating that maybe the name Marie or Mary Jeanette had been 'borrowed' from someone in her community. Maybe someone she liked or respected.

    There are not a heck of a lot of women with that name in the UK, though, of course, many records don't include middle-names.
    Indeed, it's a very common name, which is why the background info is so important. It helps us sort the wheat from the chaff.

    There was a Mary Jeanette Jones living in Nevin, Caernarvonshire in the late 1880s, early 1890s, roughly same age as Kelly. She was, coincidentally, the wife of the local registrar of births, deaths, marriages, and vaccinations. She was also living next to a family named Davies.

    A sly woman who was changing her identity might have thought it a private joke to borrow that name of the registrar's wife, but again, how could you hope to prove it?

    It doesn't take long before you realize you're on a fool's errand. You're left with no way to gain your footing.
    It's my view that rather than begin by looking for just any Mary Kelly, we need to find the one's who's family details most closely fit the story related by Barnett.
    It's details like those that are going to single out the right one from any bunch of Mary Kelly's.

    The honest truth is, there will never be a consensus on who the real Mary Kelly was unless we can single her out of a bunch of candidates.
    So, even though there may be errors in the family bio we have been given, it will be necessary for us to provisionally accept what we have been given as a litmus test with which to distinguish one candidate from another.

    Typically, when we come across a Mary Kelly who is alive in 1888, we have eliminated her and moved on. I think this was premature, if she had the same number of brothers & a sister plus being Irish, and from Wales then the fact she did not die in 1888 should be a secondary concern. She just may have been the true MJK, and the victim was someone who knew this particular Mary Kelly, and merely borrowed her family details. We could have been closer than we thought.
    Regards, Jon S.
    "
    The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
    " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
    Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

    Comment


    • Isn’t it true that, if she really did survive, we could have found her and she could have been eliminated as the real Mary Jane Kelly because of that?

      P.S. I see now that you already agreed with the last part.

      Typically, when we come across a Mary Kelly who is alive in 1888, we have eliminated her and moved on. I think this was premature,...She just may have been the true MJK, and the victim was someone who knew this particular Mary Kelly, and merely borrowed her family details. We could have been closer than we thought.
      That's certainly the long way around to bring someone like Liverpool Mary Jane Kelly back into the picture.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
        Isn’t it true that, if she really did survive, we could have found her and she could have been eliminated as the real Mary Jane Kelly because of that?

        P.S. I see now that you already agreed with the last part.



        That's certainly the long way around to bring someone like Liverpool Mary Jane Kelly back into the picture.
        I don't know, did the Liverpool Mary Jane Kelly have a sister & seven brothers?
        Regards, Jon S.
        "
        The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
        " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
        Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post

          I don't know, did the Liverpool Mary Jane Kelly have a sister & seven brothers?
          One sister, a merchant. 2 brothers, one Henry. Father John. Female relation on the London stage. Rich relatives in the West End, a niece rescued in Whitechapel by the City Missionary who knew Mary….

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
            The only part that rings a bell for me is something I read years ago, if I haven't misremembered it.
            That (I think) one witness claimed her father came to London looking for her.

            I just came across the reference for this.

            "......but drifted from the West-end to the East-end, where she took lodgings in Pennington-street. Her father came from Wales, and tried to find her there; but, hearing from her companions that he was looking for her, Marie kept out of the way."
            Star, 12 Nov. 1888.
            The above goes back a ways, but I was re-reading the thread.

            The quote by Wickerman kind of, sort of, reminds me of the plot of Breakfast at Tiffany's.

            The old guy who came to New York looking for Holly Golightly wasn't really her father, but her ancient husband, and her name wasn't Holly Golightly, but Lula Mae Barnes, married at the age of 14.

            A story of some old geezer trying to find Mary in the East End doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence that she was on the up-and-up.

            Comment


            • The City Missionary said “a companion of hers was one we rescued”. He said he rescued 200. Someone compiled a list from about 1884 and he rescued 80 in that time. One happened to be Liverpool MJK’s niece.

              There’s more if you need it. I just have to recall all of it.

              Comment


              • Could you put in a nutshell the evidence that makes you think the City missionary of the Daily News/Evening News report was Charles Pateman?

                (Edit: Sorry, I think I have found it now. It's because the missionary in the report said he had been in the neighbourhood for seven years and Pateman is known to have gone there in 1881?)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
                  Could you put in a nutshell the evidence that makes you think the City missionary of the Daily News/Evening News report was Charles Pateman?

                  (Edit: Sorry, I think I have found it now. It's because the missionary in the report said he had been in the neighbourhood for seven years and Pateman is known to have gone there in 1881?)
                  Yes, Chris, it’s that and the London City Mission magazine articles where he mentions the same things he is quoted as saying in the papers.

                  DJA and I were discussing the Missionary’s identity when it was discovered. May I add that it was discovered because I had MJW’s niece’s marriage certificate and his name was in it as an added witness, with the word curate next to his name although I believe someone here pointed out it applied to the officiating prelate named above that.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                    Again, virtually none, if any, of the MJK research is actually done based on the name. It’s based on mine explosions, Davies and Scots Guards with Irish names.

                    What do you make of that as a main line of research?
                    Davies/Davis/Davey/David is a possible clue but there are millions of them in Wales. What is almost impossible is to strongly link ANY Kelly to any Davies. There were a lot of various explosions in Wales beyond the terrible pit disasters. I have spent a lot of time looking for smaller, local explosions and disasters. Even if names are available it is hard to find more, to learn the victim's family, spouse, etc. Some were noted to have a number of children and I figured these would not be connected to MJK.

                    As far as Scots Guards, others with better search capabilities have not made the necessary connection. I don't know what to make of this. In my modern experience, people who do not have much family sometimes apply family terms to close friends. Did Mary have a close male friend she called brother?

                    Mary's sister who travelled about and sold things might be a better clue but we have no name and hawking was done by many. If something could be found where a female hawker claimed MJK was her sister, we might have something.

                    Some things I think are important: Marie Jeanette or more likely a British version of this combination might be valid. MJK was said to have been a long time in hospital in Wales, perhaps Cardiff. Her postmortem showed lung adhesions which, in those days, could have been caused by a number of illnesses, but is there a chance we could pick up a name on a contagious disease and quarantine report in the papers? When I say "contagious" I mean diphtheria, typhoid, etc. and do not specifically mean STD. There were some nasty outbreaks of these old time diseases around the time Mary would have been in Cardiff. Is it possible Mary contracted one of these illnesses, spent a long time in hospital and afterward chose to go to London for a fresh start?

                    Since Joe Barnett never referred to Mary's mother -- though he mentioned her father, brother and sister -- I think Mary did not know her mother, her mother had died when Mary was young or, less likely, Mary's mother was abusive and Mary wanted to forget her. I think a possible search result to find would be Mary in a family where the mother had died when she was young, etc.

                    Like I said before, I question the name Kelly and probably Davies. The latter is extremely convenient since that is such a common name in Wales. Also as I have said before, IMO Joe Barnett may have been a bit hard of hearing. He described Mary's husband as Davies or Davis and as I understand it, there would be little difference in the sound of these names in Welsh. So I have wondered if Davey/David could have been the first name of Mary's husband, if he existed at all. I know in some Victorian era marriages there was great formality with spouses calling each other Mr. and Mrs. or Mother and Father after the children were born. I do not imagine such propriety in Mary's social class. Therefore I would think she would have said her husband's first name or even used a pet name. For instance David could = Davey, which sounds a lot like Davies, especially if someone was hard of hearing. Not to mention how Joe may have processed a statement like, "Davey's job was dangerous," if Mary ever said anything like that.
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                    Comment




                    • I feel I'm basically suggesting the same thing but impostors tend to draw the ire of people. I guess it smacks too much of conspiracy and that's still a bad word for some reason, even though everything from Shakespeare to Columbus to Son of Sam is now a proven major league conspiracy.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post

                        As far as Scots Guards, others with better search capabilities have not made the necessary connection. I don't know what to make of this. In my modern experience, people who do not have much family sometimes apply family terms to close friends. Did Mary have a close male friend she called brother?
                        That's always possible, Mrs Kennedy had a close friend she called her 'sister' (eg Sarah Lewis).



                        Since Joe Barnett never referred to Mary's mother -- though he mentioned her father, brother and sister -- I think Mary did not know her mother, her mother had died when Mary was young or, less likely, Mary's mother was abusive and Mary wanted to forget her. I think a possible search result to find would be Mary in a family where the mother had died when she was young, etc.
                        I think it was McCarthy who said Mary had received letters from her mother.

                        Correction, it was someone who worked at the city mission...
                        "I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother, It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there."
                        Evening News, 12 Nov. 1888.
                        Regards, Jon S.
                        "
                        The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                        " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                        Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by San Fran View Post

                          I feel I'm basically suggesting the same thing but impostors tend to draw the ire of people. I guess it smacks too much of conspiracy and that's still a bad word for some reason, even though everything from Shakespeare to Columbus to Son of Sam is now a proven major league conspiracy.
                          The irony is, I reject conspiracy theories, I can't give them the time of day.
                          This series of murders, in my view was not important enough to warrant a conspiracy.

                          However, in what I am speculating, there is no other person involved, it's just the imposter adopting the name of someone she knew. I'm not suggesting the real MJK had any knowledge of it at all.
                          So, it doesn't qualify as a conspiracy, when no-one else is involved.

                          Regards, Jon S.
                          "
                          The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                          " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                          Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                          Comment


                          • How could MJK read about her impostor in the paper and not suspect?

                            It’s still a better explanation as to why the family didn’t come forward.

                            • MJK stole the identity of a living person. This other Mary Jane Kelly is alive so her family would not make a connection unless they know of a missing neighbour, friend or family member who fits the bill.

                            • The real family doesn’t know about the stolen identity. Hence, they don't show up at the funeral or come forward.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                              That's always possible, Mrs Kennedy had a close friend she called her 'sister' (eg Sarah Lewis).

                              I think it was McCarthy who said Mary had received letters from her mother.

                              Correction, it was someone who worked at the city mission...
                              "I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother, It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there."
                              Evening News, 12 Nov. 1888.
                              Doesn’t the fact that Mary so quickly switch identity when it suited her, as in this case when confronted with the City Missionary, prove she wasn’t using a real person’s persona? Didn’t she switch because she knew she couldn’t fool him?

                              Comment


                              • I have come to the conclusion that "conspiracy theories" consist of patched together stories. Before writing, mythology, fables, even religions, have roots in stories told around tribal fires in the evening after a long day of hunting and gathering.

                                I find that modern conspiracy theories contain germs of truth, embellished with faulty conclusions. It is very possible to "prove" our 9/11 disaster was a conspiracy going all the way to the White House. Applying reductionism to the chaos points to the little truths that seem to add to a fictional whole. I'll almost totally inventing events because I don't remember all the real events, but the 9/11 disaster was aided by a string of mistakes and omissions. It went something like: an official had a heart attack and no one manned his desk for two weeks so nobody responded to warnings about terrorists; another official got a written warning near the end of the day but something seemingly more important came in soon after and the terrorist warning ended up on the bottom of a pile of papers which was not seen till after the event; one terrorist should have been deported long before 9/11 but the paperwork got lost in the shuffle......etc. Everyone's fault and no one's fault. As is said in religion, sins of omission and commission. Both can be equally bad.

                                I think in real historical research, we reach dead ends with loose ends and then have to keep researching or wait until someone with more resources offers answers.

                                I thought "Maryology" had to do with a virgin birth....?

                                I still find importance in Barnett not mentioning Mary's mother. So, did she get letters from Ireland? From a mother or brother? The two words can sound similar. This can take us back to the Second Bttn. Scots Guards being in Ireland in 1888. Mother or brother? If brother, what constituted a "brother" in Mary's world?

                                A couple days before Mary's funeral, press articles stated that her family was expected to arrive very soon. Just that with no elaboration. Did investigators find letters in Mary's room? Did they contact her family? Did family attend the funeral? Was their presence protected from the press? Did Mary really come from a very decent family that wished to remain anonymous? (I come from a very old fashioned family and had older parents. If MJK had been a member of my morally strict, working class family back when, she would never have been mentioned again. I am not suggesting anything. My ethnicity is mostly East European.)

                                If Mary did have a mother in Ireland, was her father in Wales? Did he really try to find her in London? Was he separated from her mother? Could the mother have been a grandmother or another relative who was like a mother to Mary?

                                I think Barnett would have married Mary. How truthful was she with him? Maybe she did not like him as much as he seemed to like her? Maybe she made up a lot of what she told him but 18 months of cohabiting and drinking together should have elicited some truths or half truths.
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                                Comment

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