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  • 2nd Battalion Scots Guards

    The 2Bn SG are trooping the colour at Windsor today.

    That reminded me of the thread I created about their whereabouts in 1885-8. It showed they were at the Tower between Sept/Oct 1886 and Sept 1887. It also confirmed that, as Joe Barnett said, they were in Ireland (Dublin) in November,
    1888.

    I haven’t been able to find that thread. I hope it didn’t get the chop as it contains info that I don’t believe exists elsewhere.

  • #2
    Much scaled down this year, but here’s a taster, from 2012.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7EA6zxj2e-U

    Comment


    • #3
      I’ll add this for the record, in case the original thread is no longer accessible.



      “Here’s some info on the deployment of the 2nd Batn. Scots Guards 1885-8. It’s very much a work in progress. The primary sources for the data are the “Stations of the British Army” notices as published in the Leamington Courier. Unfortunately there are some gaps, but I may be able to fill them using other sources. I’ll update the tables as and when new info comes to light.

      For our purposes, the fact that the battalion was in Ireland in Nov., 1888 is of obvious interest, and is already known, but equally interesting, I think, is the fact that they were based at the Tower of London in 86/7.

      The Tower is very close to Pennington Street and I find it hard to believe that soldiers based there didn’t occasionally avail themselves of the facilities offered in the brothels of Pennington Street and the surrounding area.


      1885

      3 Jan: Wellington Barracks

      13 Jan: Wellington Barracks

      7 Feb: Wellington Barracks

      21 Feb: Wellington Barracks

      7 Mar: Sudan

      12 Mar: Suakin (Sudan)

      2 May: Sudan

      6 June: Wellington Barracks

      4 July: Cyprus

      2 Aug: Cyprus

      5 Sept: En route to England

      3 Oct: Wellington Barracks


      1886

      2 Jan: Wellington Barracks

      6 Feb: Wellington Barracks

      8 May: Wellington Barracks

      5 Jun: Wellington Barracks

      7 Aug: Wellington Barracks

      9 Oct: Tower

      12 Oct: Tower


      1887

      1 Jan: Tower

      5 Feb: Tower

      2 Apr: Tower

      2 July: Pirbright (Training)

      6 Aug: Tower

      10(?) Sept: From Tower to Chelsea

      3 Dec: Tower


      1888

      7 Jan: Chelsea

      Mar: Chelsea

      Apr: Chelsea

      May: Chelsea

      May: Aldershot (Training)

      June: Chelsea

      July: Chelsea

      Aug: Chelsea

      Sept: Chelsea

      Sept: Dublin

      Oct: Chelsea(?)

      Oct: Dublin

      Nov: Dublin

      Dec: Dublin

      Dec: Curragh”

      Comment


      • #4
        It’s interesting that the Btn had only moved to Ireland in October and yet by early November Barnett was already aware of the fact. He could have picked it up from a newspaper report, I suppose, but I don’t think the ‘Stations’ of the army were published in the mainstream press.

        And it would be quite a coincidence if MJK’s brother had been posted to barracks a few minutes away from Pennington Street about the time she left there.

        Comment


        • #5
          Debra found a February, 1885 baptism record for a child named John Joseph Blair. His parents were John and Jane and their address at the time was 79, Pennington Street. We later discovered that the child had died in December that year at 4, Station Place, not far from the Commercial gas works.

          The Blairs are a complete mystery (to me at least). Their marriage has so far proved elusive. The name is not as common as you might think in London, it’s obviously a Scottish name and you find it mostly in Scotland and the north of England.

          The Blairs are an intriguing mystery.

          Comment


          • #6
            I see The Army and Navy Gazette, which shows all the stations of the British Army was available on Saturday the 3rd Nov. The issue shows the 2nd were in Dublin.
            Is someone suggesting Barnett looked it up?
            Regards, Jon S.
            "
            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

            Comment


            • #7
              I just thought I would share it.
              Regards, Jon S.
              "
              The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
              " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
              Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

              Comment


              • #8
                Colonel Joshua Charles Vanneck was the son of the Baron of Huntingfield in Suffolk. Just some extra detail.
                Author of 'Jack the Ripper: Threads' out now on Amazon > UK | USA | CA | AUS
                JayHartley.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                  I see The Army and Navy Gazette, which shows all the stations of the British Army was available on Saturday the 3rd Nov. The issue shows the 2nd were in Dublin.
                  Is someone suggesting Barnett looked it up?
                  I’m certainly not.

                  Although the info was available in the Gazette and other publications, they were probably not the sort of papers that Barnett or Kelly were likely to have come across.

                  It seems most likely that she did have a personal connection to the 2BSG. Though whether that was through a brother who was serving in it or a client is less clear.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                    I’m certainly not.

                    Although the info was available in the Gazette and other publications, they were probably not the sort of papers that Barnett or Kelly were likely to have come across.

                    It seems most likely that she did have a personal connection to the 2BSG. That may have been through a brother who was serving in it or a client is less clear.


                    I can’t recall if I determined exactly when the 2BSG moved to Dublin, but it seems to have been some time in September/October, so Barnett’s info was pretty current. If the info didn’t come from the papers, it suggests Kelly may have been in touch with her ‘brother’ in the weeks leading up to her murder.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It appears the 2BSG relocated to Dublin on 6th September. However, a detachment from the battalion returned to England to undergo a training session in Aldershot which began on 14th November.

                      Did they travel directly from Dublin to Aldershot, or were they granted a few days leave in between?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        It appears the 2BSG relocated to Dublin on 6th September. However, a detachment from the battalion returned to England to undergo a training session in Aldershot which began on 14th November.

                        Did they travel directly from Dublin to Aldershot, or were they granted a few days leave in between?
                        Hold the front page...

                        It seems that the detachment of Scots Guards who remained in England when their comrades went to Dublin did not go on to Aldershot after all. It had been intended that they would undergo cavalry training and become part of a new Mounted Infantry regiment, but apparently it proved impossible to source horses capable of carrying men of the physique of guardsmen, so the plan was abandoned and the guardsman who had been detained in England went over to Ireland shortly after the rest of the battalion.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                          I can’t recall if I determined exactly when the 2BSG moved to Dublin, but it seems to have been some time in September/October, so Barnett’s info was pretty current. If the info didn’t come from the papers, it suggests Kelly may have been in touch with her ‘brother’ in the weeks leading up to her murder.
                          I did place a couple of things on this thread that noted the 2/ SG left London for Dublin on 6 Sept, 1888 which happened to be the last date entered in the records of Thomas Kelly aka Francis keenan, a serving Scots Guard.
                          https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...ds-of-interest

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

                            I did place a couple of things on this thread that noted the 2/ SG left London for Dublin on 6 Sept, 1888 which happened to be the last date entered in the records of Thomas Kelly aka Francis keenan, a serving Scots Guard.
                            https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...ds-of-interest
                            Thanks, Debs. Fortunately your thread seems to have survived.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                              Thanks, Debs. Fortunately your thread seems to have survived.
                              Is this the 2019 thread you are looking for, Gary?
                              https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/brit...-guards-1885-8

                              Comment

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