Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The A To Z 2010 : Discussion Thread 2

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Phil Kellingley
    replied
    Originally posted by How Brown View Post
    Not sure Nemo.

    I've noticed the entry on Harriett Buswell ( 1843-1872) listed on page 79 as a suggested suspect. Buswell was the victim in the Great Coram Street murder of 1872.
    Damn. I thought I was the only person who noticed that. Trust How to get in first.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Johann Kerslo

    In the new edition,on page 284...a minor & inconsequential gaffe is found in regard to an April 11th,1889 (not 1888) Pall Mall Gazette article which mentions Johann Kerslo ( not Kelso)...a German pamphleteer who was sentenced to two weeks in jail for distributing a pamphlet entitled, The Latest Atrocities of Jack The Ripper, in Stuttgart.


    Thanks to the A to Z authors for mentioning this episode. I hadn't heard of it before...and I don't recall anyone else ever being jailed for distributing literature about the Whitechapel Murders before.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    For Trevor Marriott:

    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....686#post115686

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    One addition I'd like to make if I may be so bold...is to the entry for Jack The Ripper, The 21st Century Investigation on page 240.

    The authors write..."Marriott (Trevor Marriott) believes Jack The Ripper to have been a merchant seaman,unaware that the police thoroughly investigated this possibility at the time...."

    Mr. Marriott is on record as claiming that the contemporary police didn't consider that a seaman or sailor may have been the Ripper. We have ample evidence to show otherwise.

    The italicized line would cover all bases if it read...

    Marriott (Trevor Marriott) claims that the contemporary police did not consider the possibility that the Ripper may have been a mariner ,unaware that the police thoroughly investigated this possibility of the Ripper being a mariner at the time...."

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin Roberts
    replied
    Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
    Sorry for the delay in chiming in but let me second that, Colin.
    Thank you, Bob!

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin Roberts
    replied
    Originally posted by Cris Malone View Post
    In corrolation with infant mortality and the number of 'murders' committed in the area at the time is the sadly high presence of infanticide... far outnumbering the murders of adults.
    Or, at the very least, far outnumbering the murders of adults, in any particular five-year age interval, Cris.

    Originally posted by Colin Roberts
    In Accordance with the Fifty First Annual Report of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England, 1888:

    England

    Registered Deaths Classified as 'Murder', within Specified Intervals of Victim Age (Male)
    Infancy - Age 4: 55
    Ages 5 - 9: 2
    Ages 10 - 14: 2
    Ages 15 - 19: 2
    Ages 20 - 24: 5
    Ages 25 - 34: 3
    Ages 35 - 44: 2
    Ages 45 - 54: 7
    Ages 55 - 64: 2
    Ages 65 - 74: 3
    Ages 75 - 84: 1
    Ages 85 - xx: 0

    Total: 84

    Registered Deaths Classified as 'Murder', within Specified Intervals of Victim Age (Female)
    Infancy - Age 4: 48
    Ages 5 - 9: 3
    Ages 10 - 14: 2
    Ages 15 - 19: 2
    Ages 20 - 24: 8
    Ages 25 - 34: 12
    Ages 35 - 44: 17
    Ages 45 - 54: 11
    Ages 55 - 64: 1
    Ages 65 - 74: 6
    Ages 75 - 84: 1
    Ages 85 - xx: 0

    Total: 111
    A focus, on the 'Infancy - Age 4' intervals, for both the 'Male' and 'Female' sets of data, is ... horrifying.

    Registered Deaths Classified as 'Murder', throughout England; within Specified Intervals of Victim Age, 1888 (Male)
    0 - 1 Month: 42
    1 Month - 1 Year: 6
    1 Year: 2
    2 Years: 2
    3 Years: 0
    4 Years: 3

    Total; Infancy - Age 4: 55

    Total; All Ages: 84

    Registered Deaths Classified as 'Murder', throughout England; within Specified Intervals of Victim Age, 1888 (Female)
    0 - 1 Month: 35
    1 Month - 1 Year: 6
    1 Year: 2
    2 Years: 3
    3 Years: 1
    4 Years: 1

    Total; Infancy - Age 4: 48

    Total; All Ages: 111

    Leave a comment:


  • SirRobertAnderson
    replied
    Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
    Hi Colin,
    I for one am indebted to you for what you do here---for supplying this great mass of information collected into specific statistics of the political geography of the East End in the 19th century, though I sincerely hope that other people dont feel it in anyway diminishes their own splendid research.
    Sorry for the delay in chiming in but let me second that, Colin. You do great work, in fact unique work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cris Malone
    replied
    In corrolation with infant mortality and the number of 'murders' committed in the area at the time is the sadly high presence of infanticide... far outnumbering the murders of adults.

    Leave a comment:


  • Natalie Severn
    Guest replied
    I have found statistical data, in the annual reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England, which should hopefully lay to rest a widely accepted myth that is attributable, I believe, to Jack London: That fifty five percent (55%) of all children, born in London's 'East End', during the 1880's/1890's, perished before reaching the age of five.
    Thanks Colin,
    Lets keep the real flag flying!
    Best
    Norma

    ...and thanks to String re the link---look forward to reading this article, N

    Leave a comment:


  • String
    replied
    I remember reading this ages ago and it may be useful:
    http://www.ums.ac.uk/inst/hbch_dc.pdf

    Page six has infant mortality rates.

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin Roberts
    replied
    Thank you, Norma!

    Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
    ... I have tried to explain , that well intentioned as they undoubtedly were, --- the Mayhews, Booths, and Londons of the age,there was in each case a tendency at times towards subjective observation or category, ...
    I have found statistical data, in the annual reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England, which should hopefully lay to rest a widely accepted myth that is attributable, I believe, to Jack London: That fifty five percent (55%) of all children, born in London's 'East End', during the 1880's/1890's, perished before reaching the age of five.

    A much more realistic estimate of pre-five-year-old mortality, in London's 'East End', during that period, would be something in the neighborhood of thirty percent (30%); and, I will be presenting the statistical data that indicates as much, at some point in the coming weeks.

    Thirty percent (30%) is an astonishing rate of infant/toddler mortality. But, it is a far cry, from being fifty five percent (55%).

    Leave a comment:


  • Natalie Severn
    Guest replied
    Hi Colin,
    I for one am indebted to you for what you do here---for supplying this great mass of information collected into specific statistics of the political geography of the East End in the 19th century, though I sincerely hope that other people dont feel it in anyway diminishes their own splendid research.
    This growing body of illuminating , all encompassing information surely needs to be seen as an addition to that research and hopefully the achievement of an even more realistic and accurate understanding of East End Society in the latter quarter of the 19th century.
    Such an impersonal,impartial approach to the dissemination of statistical information is surely crucial to a truly accurate understanding of the socio/political/economic reality of the East End of 1888 and consequently the context of the Whitechapel Murders which in turn allows a better understanding of the JtR case ? By situating the murders ,and consequently their impact and implications into the reality of East End society circa 1888 we can relegate the sometimes "subjective preconceptions" of the scribes of the period to that of " additional scholarly information ", without trying to determine to what extent their thinking was shaped by their own liberal/conservative/working class or immigrant experience and upbringing.
    I myself have questioned the objectivity of some of the major chroniclers of the C19th East End ,and caused one or two feathers to be ruffled or for someone to disagree with me in no uncertain terms but I have tried to explain , that well intentioned as they undoubtedly were, --- the Mayhews, Booths, and Londons of the age,there was in each case a tendency at times towards subjective observation or category, in even the finest research of someone like Booth .
    So again, thankyou Colin for your sterling contributions,
    Best,
    Norma

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Folks...

    From this point on, we're going to demand that comments expressing a different point of view on any aspect of the Case or a correction to a point on any issue be free of any invectives,period.

    Any posts containing insults will be edited or if necessary,deleted.


    No exceptions.

    Thank You.

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin Roberts
    replied
    Hawes, Harry; Page 203:

    "Undertaker of 19 Hunt Street, Spitalfields, ..."

    "Spitalfields"

    19 Hunt Street was not situated within the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields. Rather, it was situated within the Hamlet of Mile End New Town.

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin Roberts
    replied
    Originally posted by Colin Roberts View Post
    Originally posted by Dave O View Post
    ". . . disdain for my fascination with the political geography of Victorian London"

    The impact of political boundaries on Mary Kelly's inquest was huge, imo.
    Indeed, it was, Dave!

    Interestingly, had the remains of Mary Jane Kelly been discovered approximately 150 yards west of Miller's Court, Dorset Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, on the pavement in front of Alice McKenzie's last known place of residence, 52 Gun Street, Old Artillery Ground; ...

    Originally posted by Colin Roberts View Post
    McKenzie, Alice 'Clay Pipe', aka Alice Bryant (c. 1849-89); Page 319:

    "Then, from c. April 1889 the couple were usually resident at Mr. Tenpenny's lodging-house, 52 Gun Street, Spitalfields, ..."

    "Spitalfields"

    52 Gun Street was not situated within the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields. Rather, it was situated within the Old Artillery Ground.
    ... and, had Thomas Ratcliff been on hand, to exert his coronial jurisdictional authority; the remains would have been removed to the Tower of London Mortuary, and the inquest proceedings would have been conducted at the Sessions House, in Wellclose Square, Precinct of Wellclose, Parish of St. John of Wapping.
    "... disdain for my fascination with the political geography of Victorian London"

    The post, from which I was quoted, by 'Dave O', appears to have been deleted.

    I was referring to the apparent disdain of Mr. John Bennett, - which, by the way, has been apparent, to me, for quite some time - for my fascination with the political geography of Victorian London; and the fact that it would seem to 'fly in the face' of his own personal interests, e.g. the history of London's 'East End'.

    'Dave O' has cited the impact of political geography, on the 'outcome', of the Mary Jane Kelly inquest.

    From various inter police force and intra police force (i.e. 'divisional') jurisdictional authorities; to various coronial jurisdictional authorities; to various death certificate registrational responsibilities; to various mortuary accommodation / subsequent burial responsibilities; etc ...; the impact of political geography, on the 'outcome', of the entire turn of events, that was the 'Whitechapel Murders', was indeed tremendous.

    And, for the modern-day 'investigator', the impact of political geography, can be just as tremendous.

    Originally posted by Colin Roberts View Post
    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    ... may I ask if anyone knows which parish Bevis marks was in?
    The southeastern 'quarter' was situated in the Parish of St. Katharine Cree; while the remaining 'three quarters' were situated in the Parish of All Hallows ('London Wall') (Detached).
    Originally posted by Colin Roberts View Post
    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    Thanks Colin
    You are most welcome.


    Boundary Plates - Bevis Marks, City of London: The Parish of St. Katharine Cree, 1817; The Parish of All Hallows ('London Wall') (Detached), 1894 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
    Courtesy of Robert Clack
    I knew that one, off of the top of my head!

    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
    Dont despair. Having had a sneak preview of 'Ripperlands TWO' it would appear that they are taking Parish boundaries very seriously indeed
    Make a mockery of that, at next week's conference, Jeff! And, while you are at it; ask the illustrious 'Right Reverend' Mr. Bennett, if he would have had the foggiest f┬Ácking notion, as to where the records, for Bevis Marks, are to be found, in the Census of England & Wales.

    ---

    If we don't have a fundamental grasp, of Victorian London's political geography; we just might humiliate ourselves, in front of a world-wide television audience.

    Originally posted by Colin Roberts View Post
    "For me, this is absolutely fascinating, because the mortuary attendant, Robert Mann, was born just here. … In Hope Street! It's, it's just there! It's very much within that central area that you have profiled as being his killing zone."

    M. J. Trow discussing the Geographic Profile that was conducted for the Discovery Channel documentary "Jack the Ripper: Killer Revealed".

    As he points to the general area, in which 'Hope Street' was situated; the television perspective changes from a profile depiction, based on a modern underlying map, to one that is based on the 1894 Ordnance Survey. At this point, Hope Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel*, is clearly visible within the vicinity, to which Mr. Trow has drawn the attention of the Geographic Profiler, with whom he is speaking.

    * Why bother with the parochial distinction 'Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel', when referring to Hope Street, in this particular instance?

    After all, such things are really of no relevance; are they?


    Geographic Profile: "Jack the Ripper: Quest for a Killer", by M. J. Trow; Page 191 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

    (My Color-Shadings)

    Red (Top-to-Bottom / Left-to-Right):
    - Hope Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
    - Hope Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel

    Now, which of the two do we think might have been the early childhood home of Robert Mann?

    "The census of 1841 shows the Mann family living in Hope Street, Whitechapel, on the edge of the focus of Jack's activities, as outlined by geo-profiler Spencer Chainey."

    "Jack the Ripper: Quest for a Killer", by M. J. Trow; Page 187

    Clearly, Mr. Trow thinks he has the answer!

    Let's see for ourselves; shall we?

    Census of England & Wales, 1841
    County: Middlesex
    Registration District: Whitechapel
    Civil Parish: Christ Church Spitalfields
    Registration Sub-District: Spitalfields
    Enumeration District: 2
    Enumeration Schedules: 36 – 42
    Pages: 17 – 29
    Hope Street: House Numbers not Delineated; 296 Total Residents …


    Census of England & Wales, 1841: Hope Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, County of Middlesex (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)



    Enumeration Schedule: 40
    Pages: 25, 26
    - Robert Mann; 50; Silk Weaver
    - Elizabeth Mann; 46
    - Amelia Mann; 7
    - Robert Mann; 5



    Census of England & Wales, 1841
    County: Middlesex
    Registration District: Whitechapel
    Civil Parish: St. Mary Whitechapel
    Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
    Enumeration District: 1
    Enumeration Schedules: 18, 19
    Pages: 27 – 29
    Hope Street: House Numbers not Delineated; 46 Total Residents …



    None by the name of 'Mann'




    Hope Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields; and Hope Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
    Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
    Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

    Red w/ Gold Outline (Top-to-Bottom / Left-to-Right):
    - Hope Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
    - Hope Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel

    Red w/ Green/White Outline (Bottom-to-Top / Left-to-Right):
    - Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary, Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town
    - Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town

    No less than an entire book and television documentary devoted to this non-starter, Robert Mann; and the folks who put it all together cannot even track down his early childhood home and possible place of birth.

    Mr. Trow should have referred to the 1873 Ordnance Survey, rather than the 1894 series of the same. He wouldn't have needed John Bennett's fancy Goad Fire Insurance Survey (Provided, Courtesy of Robert Clack) to locate Eagle Place, Hamlet of Mile End New Town; and he might have noticed that there were at least two thoroughfares named 'Hope Street' in the Whitechapel Registration District: One of them being clearly situated within the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, and the other being well within the boundaries of the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields.
    "* Why bother with the parochial distinction 'Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel', when referring to Hope Street, in this particular instance?

    After all, such things are really of no relevance; are they?"

    That was intended, for Mr. Bennett, at the time that I first typed it!

    Again;

    If we don't have a fundamental grasp, of Victorian London's political geography; we just might humiliate ourselves, in front of a world-wide television audience.

    Then again, we might not; if nobody knows - or, for that matter, cares about - the difference.

    Wasn't Mr. Bennett a 'player', in the production of that documentary?

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X