Charles Lechmere’s Lair?

[Abby Normal]

My copy of Cutting Point arrived today - looking forward to tucking into it ...

its an excellent book Mrs JBL and a cracking good read. Fisherman/Christer did an excellent job keeping it concise, interesting and connecting all the different evidence. One of my favorite suspect books!
Full disclosure-I would be remiss if I didnt state that from very early on and alone with maybe a couple of others, I lean heavily that the torsoman and the ripper were the same man, so yes, I admit im probably a tad biased to this idea. : )

[Abby Normal]

wow excellent pics Gary and Rob!

[Gary Barnett]

The Booth survey in Feb. 1887 recorded a ‘C - ry’ at 22, Doveton Street. Presumably that is short for Carman railway. There were two households at the address, those of a potman and a carman. The carman’s wages were 25/-. The rent for the property is confusing. There is nothing in the ‘Rent’ column for no. 22, but in the ‘Wife’ column it says ‘E 5’. Elsewhere, that kind of notation appears in the rent column. There is also a note a top of the page in the rent column ‘8/- to 10/-‘

Looking again at the 20, James Street entry, I think that what I initially read as ‘C. reg.’ might also be ‘C ry’. No wages were recorded for this carman (presumably Lechmere in June, 1887), but ‘E 5’ appears in the ‘Rent’ column.

It’s quite likely, I would have thought, that the carman at 22, Doveton Street before Lechmere was a colleague of his. Which might explain why he moved there, but not why he left his 6-roomed home in James Street.

[Rob Clack]

Shovel Alley, early 1930s. Did Lechmere have an association with Jane Street? Something tingling at the back of my head.

[Gary Barnett]

Shovel Alley, early 1930s. Did Lechmere have an association with Jane Street? Something tingling at the back of my head.

Thanks, Rob. I have seen that one.

He lived in James Street for a number of years. I’m not sure about Jane Street.

And Antcliffe Street briefly.

[Gary Barnett]

Since we're in a thread concerned with 'Lechmere’s Lair', I hope I can say that I really wish someone could come up with a photo of even one of the houses he or/and his mother is known to have lived in.

I can't help feeling we'd learn a lot just from seeing the exterior (and even more from digging up the garden...)

Mark D.

Addendum: Since I'm still not entirely convinced his Carlton Road address has been correctly located, I haven't quite let go of the hope that the surviving shop/house with the Lechmere photo brickwork is the (partly rebuilt) actual property... Anyone feel like taking another look in the records...?

Where did we discuss Carlton Road before, Mark? Was it here or the other place?

[Rob Clack]

Ah thanks, I must have been confusing the two.

[Mrs JBL]

I'm thoroughly enjoying it and, being fairly new to Ripperology, also finding it informative and enlightening. I don't believe JtR would only have been responsible for just the accepted victims. Most criminals are like icebergs - we only find out about a small % of their crimes - the rest lie undiscovered and unknown. Lechmere has too many inconsistencies for my liking.... ! Best wishes.

[Edward Stow]

The estate that encompasses Carlton Road was built as a big planned development called the Globe Fields Estate, owned by William Pemberton Barnes. In the 1840s I think.
Lusk lived in the same estate.
The rent ledgers are held at Tower Hamlets Reference Library. I poured over them several years ago. Neither Lusk nor Lechmere are mentioned possibly as they weren't the head lessees.
There is a contemporary aerial plan showing the estate as a bird's eye view, with Lechmere's shop (and Lusk's house) clearly drawn. I once uploaded images on here... I think.

I'm very familiar with Carlton Road (now Portelet Road) and used to drink in the Carlton pub (which is also shown)... unknowingly.

The original numbering ran from 1, consecutively, from the southern and west side by Carlton Square up to house before the pub which was 25.
Then back down the east side from number 26 to 67 back at the square.
The original 24 Carlton Road was two doors down from the Carlton Arms.
But at some point the road was renumbered with odds on the eastern side and evens on the western side putting 24 on the southern corner of York Street. The shops were on the corners.
There is still an existing shop unit (although no longer a shop) on the next corner down - Norfolk Street

[Mark J D]

Where did we discuss Carlton Road before, Mark? Was it here or the other place?

Ah. It may have been on Facetube or somewhere, so you weren't there.

My understanding is that Edward Stow has sought out all the Lechmere properties, and found that every one of them is gone.

What I can't shake, though, is the fact that there's one shop remaining that has the window shape we see in Lech's photo.

Looks to me like the shop was allowed to remain when the Victorians upgraded the block after the Booth Map was made... Did every corner retain its shop until the Luftwaffe remodelling? Or is this Lech's place with our grasp of the numbering all inadequate...?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5248...7i13312!8i6656

It may be that there were shops of this design allowed to remain on other corners...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5247...7i16384!8i8192

But to me it's pretty clear that these window shapes were the same as in his photo...

M.

[Gary Barnett]

Ah. It may have been on Facetube or somewhere, so you weren't there.

My understanding is that Edward Stowe has sought out all the Lechmere properties, and found that every one of them is gone.

What I can't shake, though, is the fact that there's one shop remaining that has the window shape we see in Lech's photo.

Looks to me like the shop was allowed to remain when the Victorians upgraded the block after the Booth Map was made... Did every corner retain its shop until the Luftwaffe remodelling? Or is this Lech's place with our grasp of the numbering all inadequate...?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5248...7i13312!8i6656

It may be that there were shops of this design allowed to remain on other corners...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5247...7i16384!8i8192

But to me it's pretty clear that these window shapes were the same as in his photo...

M.

No, we did discuss it. I just couldn’t remember where.

Thanks for the links.

[Gary Barnett]

Ah. It may have been on Facetube or somewhere, so you weren't there.

My understanding is that Edward Stow has sought out all the Lechmere properties, and found that every one of them is gone.

What I can't shake, though, is the fact that there's one shop remaining that has the window shape we see in Lech's photo.

Looks to me like the shop was allowed to remain when the Victorians upgraded the block after the Booth Map was made... Did every corner retain its shop until the Luftwaffe remodelling? Or is this Lech's place with our grasp of the numbering all inadequate...?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5248...7i13312!8i6656

It may be that there were shops of this design allowed to remain on other corners...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5247...7i16384!8i8192

But to me it's pretty clear that these window shapes were the same as in his photo...

M.

Judging by the PO directory, 24, Carlton Road was on the west side of the street between Leatherdale Street and Norfolk Street. That would make it north of Norfolk Street (today’s Massingham Street) whereas the ex-shop that still exists is to the south of it. Assuming the numbering was evens on the W. side of the street and counting from the house after the pub, 24 would seem to have on the SE corner of Leatherdale Street, so no longer there.

[Rob Clack]

I walked up Portelet Road via Massingham Street a few weeks ago. The Duke of York Public House in Massingham Street (formally Norfolk Street) still survives but doesn't look like it is still trading. The Carlton Arms was at the top end of Carlton Road but it's address was 238 Devonshire Street (now a continuation of Bancroft Road).

[Mark J D]

Thanks for this, everybody! Not what I wanted to hear; but good stuff, as ever!

Bests,

Mark D.

[Mrs JBL]

I'm absolutely loving reading Cutting Point - as a recently new poster on the forums there is quite a lot of information in the book that is new to me. I'm currently reading about the Anatomical Venus link and finding it fascinating!! It fits into the jigsaw perfectly!!