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  • Forensic Genealogy

    LE calls it familial DNA testing. I call it Forensic Genealogy. It's worked recently in official cases to solve crimes.

    http://www.examiner-enterprise.com/o...o-solve-crimes

    http://xtremepsychology.proboards.co...nsic-genealogy

    I'm using AncestryDNA to solve JtR mysteries and, in an effort to prove the validity of this approach and of my understanding of genetic science or the "bloodline" approach to it, I've decided to have myself DNA tested, which I never really wanted to do. Who wants to find out they're their own slavemaster like Spike Lee?!

    But in the interest of science and Ripperology, here is the e-mail I sent to Howard and it's for everyone here too:


    I have a proposition for you.

    I will make a set of predictions for myself and for everyone I get
    wrong I give the forums $ 10 dollars.

    1. Less than 5 percent Jewish. Or should I say up to? (although no suggestion ever made to me)
    2. Less than 25 percent Italian (although both parents geographically from there)
    3. Will have cousins with Pennsylvania roots in their family tree (although I'm first generation Canadian and earliest relatives came to America c. 1900.)
    4. Will have much less cousin matches than the usual 2000 or so
    5. No royalty in cousin family trees

    I can try to think of some more for you. Anyone who wants to make suggestions for predictions or make there own is welcome to.

    Results should be in in March.

  • #2
    Francisco


    Mr. Rasse und Wissenschaft here :

    You might be paddlin' with the wrong end of the oar, buddy...at least on 2 items.

    How are you going to determine this 5 percent Jewish thing ?
    Ashkenazim or Sephardic ?

    Eye-talian....
    Northern (Abbruzze) or Southern ( Calabrese) ?

    Comment


    • #3
      Wait a minute !

      Concerning the Pennsylvania 'roots'.....brother, we chopped that tree down for kindling back in the Winter of '83.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
        How are you going to determine this 5 percent Jewish thing ?
        Ashkenazim or Sephardic ?

        Eye-talian....
        Northern (Abbruzze) or Southern ( Calabrese) ?
        I'm not afraid to make the call but Ancestry doesn't have that specific a breakdown on racial genetic makeup. It only has Italian and Greek lumped together and European Jewish.

        To me, there's French Jew, German Jew, Eastern European and Russian Jew. I'd go with the French Jew which from what I've just read are Sephardic. I won't say any more until the results are in.

        Eye-talian? Duh. Obviously Northern. Those Southern paesans are better looking but one punch in the face and we're all equal.

        Comment


        • #5
          Here's the world map of the Ancestry racial/genetic breakdown.

          https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/...egions-map.png

          I hope you weren't expecting to find out from the pie chart if I'm Transylvanian. You have to study the family trees to find that out. But they probably cut those down too to make stakes.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't see a guide to the color code.

            There have been so many different influences on populations in the last couple millennia that I would be suspicious of oversimplifications. To me research on mtDNA and Y chromosomes have the most value. My interest in genetics is medical pathology.

            In fairly recent times there have been huge migrations and devastations of populations. For instance, circa 547-- (Dark Age caused by Krakatoa blowing Java in half?)-- the Mongolian Avar people migrated 4000 miles west to settle around Hungary and harass what was left of the Roman Empire in Constantinople. How does that affect the genetics of the populations of Eastern Europe or Russia?

            Another example is the racial mixing in the Mediterranian area.

            More interesting yet, the closest genetic matches to Otzi the Ice Man found in the glacier in the Alps is, as I recall, Sardinia. The reason is the people of that island did less mixing with the people who became modern Europeans.

            It is absolutely fascinating what horrific plagues did to populations, who survived and why.

            It seems to me it comes down to questions of assimilation of human groups and nationality is not really a part of it. Semitic genes can be traced through populations and can point to Middle Eastern ancestry at some point, usually after the last Ice Age, but such genes do not automatically pinpoint Jewishness.
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

            Comment


            • #7
              I can't remember where I seen it but I remember a white coat saying this sort of thing is not possible, this article backs it up.
              https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.med...?client=safari

              Comment


              • #8
                Good points, Anna.
                Good article, String.

                The old adage...'Mama's baby, Papa's maybe' is also a factor to consider.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Almost forgot....

                  In general, however, DNA genealogy is far more useful for population geneticists who are trying to learn about past human migrations than it is for individuals trying to learn their specific relation to Genghis Khan.

                  Stan Russo, author and buddy, mentioned the fecundity of this particular Khan to me 11 years ago.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan

                  http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...-genghis-khan/

                  http://www.iflscience.com/health-and...-genghis-khan/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It might be better, as Howard says, to trace human migration but it's the bloodlines I'm after. There you'd have to search the Family Trees of the familial DNA matches.

                    Ethnicity is probably the least accurate part of the testing but it's still valid generally when you don't get too specific or complex. By keeping it simple, putting Greeks and Italian together and all First Nations Americans together, Ancestry increases it's accuracy.

                    And it's updating its profiling all the time. You could be trace Jewish one day and it'll be gone months later.

                    AncestryDNA is also backed up by users' Family Trees. Beyond the margin of error, the only problem is in the interpretation of the data.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi San,

                      I've found family connections in the City of London, which date from the 1500's-1800's. I was told by a local Dover historian that my family are: "one of the oldest Kentish families". I personally believe us to be of Anglo Saxon descent, although I can't as yet prove this. I'm going to take the Ancestry DNA test.

                      Best wishes,

                      Sean.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by San Fran
                        That's great, Sean. I was told by my mother that we're from an old Italian family, DeRicci. That's one name I can trace through history to find patterns of behavior or misbehavior.

                        The Ancestry test is a scientific way, with a defined measure of accuracy, that can confirm what we already know or suspect. I wasn't really interested and actually wanted to avoid doing it but I basically gave in on a sort of wager.

                        The majority of AncestryDNA users and the people who seem most interested in finding out their roots using AncestryDNA are Americans. I think that's because most of them were born and bred in a saloon!

                        Then they find out what they already knew. They're all King Ralphs!
                        Hi San,

                        We did marry into the Cauchie family of Genoa. According to the family tree we are connected to the Borgias (an unbroken line).

                        My girlfriend has been trying to poison me for years!

                        No Ralph's, but you can never be too sure.

                        Members of my family also have a Churchill connection, having met Winston on numerous occasions. My family also met, when in Dover, Dickens and Cruikshank. I believe that the Dickens/Cruikshank meeting came through the royal photographer, Lambert Weston.

                        It's a strange world: stories that often circulate, whether they be first, second or third hand, are often casually disregarded as nonsense, despite their (sometimes) provable veracity. I don't incline to the mainstream, and so continue to draw flak. It's par for the course.

                        We have some great researchers out there, which makes me eternally optimistic about the future of Ripper studies. There still remains a great deal to be uncovered, and anyone showing a degree of intelligence and determination (whether new or old to the case) can make serious inroads.

                        Best wishes,

                        Sean.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
                          We did marry into the Cauchie family of Genoa. According to the family tree, we are connected to the Borgias (an unbroken line).
                          Buona sera, Signore. We were servants of the De Medici so probably the Borgias too.

                          We married into the Machiavellis but never into Bluebloods. Except for the one girl who married Napoleon's royal Polish bastard.

                          I'm Northern Italian too but if we turn up distant cousins on Ancestry, I'll give Howard another 10 bucks.

                          One sure way to know you're not a blueblood - if no one ever listens to you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                            Buona sera, Signore. We were servants of the De Medici so probably the Borgias too.

                            We married into the Machiavellis but never into Bluebloods. Except for the one girl who married Napoleon's royal Polish bastard.

                            I'm Northern Italian too but if we turn up distant cousins on Ancestry, I'll give Howard another 10 bucks.

                            One sure way to know you're not a blueblood - if no one ever listens to you.
                            Hi San,

                            You must like giving money away - I'll happily send How a cheque myself! Don't know the full ins and outs, but I do know that we married into that family, c.1870's, through the marriage of Carmela, a direct descendant of Carmela Borgia. This line has since died out. I was told that members of the family had fought under the banners of Napoleon.

                            Regards,

                            Sean.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
                              We did marry into the Cauchie family of Genoa. According to the family tree we are connected to the Borgias (an unbroken line)....

                              No [King] Ralph's, but you can never be too sure....
                              There still remains a great deal to be uncovered, and anyone showing a degree of intelligence and determination (whether new or old to the case) can make serious inroads.
                              This DNA experiment is my attempt to prove the validity of this online-available genetic test in proving familial links, even paternity, and in showing that bluebloods don't all live in Buckingham palace but do trickle down to every level. I already know that for a fact, workplace, church, school, media. You name it. Millers Court would be no difference.

                              Thanks for listening

                              Comment

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