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  • John McCarthy's arrears?

    Until I watched the recent series on the Victorian slums being discussed in this thread: http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=26361
    I hadn't really appreciated that as shop owner and lodging house keeper among a pauper/casual workforce population, how much John McCarthy's finances would have been totally dependent on the situations of his tennants.

    We know that Mary Jane Kelly was allowed to run up rent arrears and owed a fair amount of money before she died. Looking at the Land Tax arrears book for 1888/9 I noticed that in there were land tax arrears noted for all McCarthy's properties: 26 and 27 Dorset St and 1 to 6 Miller's Court. I assume as tennant that McCarthy would have been responsible for the payment of land tax? His name isn't given, just the addresses of property we know he tennanted.

    All the properties, listed separately. were in arrears of 4/4 installments (quarterly payments) and the reason given for the collector for Spitalfields failing to collect was that whoever was responsible for payment had 'no effects' The list was signed in May 89 by the collector but payment must have come at some point as P for paid was pencilled in at a later date.

    I wonder if M Barnett the owner or McCarthy was responsible for making land tax payments?

  • #2
    I hadn't really appreciated that as shop owner and lodging house keeper among a pauper/casual workforce population, how much John McCarthy's finances would have been totally dependent on the situations of his tenants.

    -Debs-

    Neither did I, Debs. I can't answer your question, but I hadn't considered the position that those people were actually in but I do now thanks to the program. Thanks for starting this thread.
    XXXXX
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
      I hadn't really appreciated that as shop owner and lodging house keeper among a pauper/casual workforce population, how much John McCarthy's finances would have been totally dependent on the situations of his tenants.

      -Debs-

      Neither did I, Debs. I can't answer your question, but I hadn't considered the position that those people were actually in but I do now thanks to the program. Thanks for starting this thread.
      XXXXX
      Of course, that wouldn't have applied to the residents of his doss houses where no money, no bed seems to have been the rule.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
        Of course, that wouldn't have applied to the residents of his doss houses where no money, no bed seems to have been the rule.
        Or was it? Perhaps tick was extended to those who could be expected to pay.

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        • #5
          I've always suspected that while Joe was in work, McCarthy was being paid in fish.


          I dare say that the land tax was passed from Abraham Barnett to McCarthy and down to people like Kelly who effectively paid the tax.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            Or was it? Perhaps tick was extended to those who could be expected to pay.
            Which doss houses was McCarthy running at that time, Gary? I don't have any books to hand at the mo.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
              I've always suspected that while Joe was in work, McCarthy was being paid in fish.


              I dare say that the land tax was passed from Abraham Barnett to McCarthy and down to people like Kelly who effectively paid the tax.
              That's another thing that I wondered about after watching the slum programmes-How Joe lost his porters licence. I imagine it would be something he'd have fought hard to keep hold of. A licence suggests it wasn't a job just any casual labourer could take over so the amount of casual labour around in the 80s wouldn't make any difference I presume? I used to think things like having a porters licence was something someone might hold on to for life and be a very cliquey, hard to get into business? It probably wasn't.

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              • #8
                Hi Debs


                I don't know much about Billingsgate but as a licence was involved, it sounds like a good job and I agree Joe would have wanted to hold on to his licence. It might be that there was casual labour involved somewhere in the Billingsgate industry but not, apparently, doing Joe's kind of job. The natural assumption is that he was caught stealing although it is only an assumption.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  Which doss houses was McCarthy running at that time, Gary? I don't have any books to hand at the mo.
                  Neither do I, Debs.

                  (Was that a polite way of telling me that McCarthy wasn't running doss houses at the time?)

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                  • #10
                    This is for Dorset St :


                    http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/9211.html

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                      Thanks for that, Rob. I've got a book somewhere at home that has the Dorset Street Goad map shaded to indicate the ownership of the various properties, but I'm not sure whether it relates specifically to 1888.

                      Further down the page Neal Shelden mentions a press report that states that Kelly and Chapman were friends. I wonder if that's the same report mentioned by Jerry a short while back?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        Neither do I, Debs.

                        (Was that a polite way of telling me that McCarthy wasn't running doss houses at the time?)
                        No, not at all Gary, I just wondered if you might know offhand so I could check teh arrears book for that too. I see Robert's posted a list from CB. I think there's one on forums as well come to think of it where we all disussed who owned what because I remember mentioning McCarthy's property at Great Pearl St and idly wondered if Sarah Lewis was a tennant of McCarthy's there too and was able to use a room at Miller's Court when needed as a consequence...if you know what I mean..

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                          Thanks Robert.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                            No, not at all Gary, I just wondered if you might know offhand so I could check teh arrears book for that too. I see Robert's posted a list from CB. I think there's one on forums as well come to think of it where we all disussed who owned what because I remember mentioning McCarthy's property at Great Pearl St and idly wondered if Sarah Lewis was a tennant of McCarthy's there too and was able to use a room at Milelr's Court when needed as a consequence...if you know what I mean..
                            For one horrible moment I thought I'd dropped a clanger.

                            Are these arrears of rates? A little while ago I was looking for someone living in Manchester in the 1860s/70s and the arrears were recorded in the same book as the register of owners/occupiers. Obviously the system was different in London.

                            Are these records on Ancestry? I'd like to see what can be found about Breezers Hill, Pleasant Grove etc.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                              For one horrible moment I thought I'd dropped a clanger.

                              Are these arrears of rates? A little while ago I was looking for someone living in Manchester in the 1860s/70s and the arrears were recorded in the same book as the register of owners/occupiers. Obviously the system was different in London.

                              Are these records on Ancestry? I'd like to see what can be found about Breezers Hill, Pleasant Grove etc.
                              The arrears list for 88 was filmed separately (4 pages) but is part of the Spitalfields land tax books database. There is no ordinary land tax register for 88 in the database but there is for 86 and 89. IIRC most of Breezers Hill belonged to one company.

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