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Discussion Thread For Jon Smyth's Mary Kelly Compilation

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  • Discussion Thread For Jon Smyth's Mary Kelly Compilation

    Thread for discussing the newspaper accounts of Kelly's Inquest in the papers Jon has researched.

    Thanks for not posting on the main thread...Jon is still working on it.
    To Join JTR Forums, Contact :
    Howard@jtrforums.com

  • #2
    Excellent work, Jon. Thank you.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thankyou Debs.
      And thankyou also to Chris G., Jon Simons & Lynn, my apologies for having your posts removed, but I had to keep the format consistent, I hope you understand.

      One small point, with respect to that old debate where Joe Barnett is said to have only recognised the body by, "..the ear and the eyes".

      There are other instances in the original where the recorder apparently misheard words.

      One example is in the testimony of Bowyer:

      "I have oven seen deceased in and out."

      From the printed copy of the original in my possession that third word, "oven" (actually "ouen") is obviously "often" but nowhere can I see any evidence of an "f" or a "t", my copy clearly shows a "u".

      The other example is in Barnett's testimony:

      "...she rowed with me but we away came to terms quickly."

      The word "away" can only be "always", yet in my copy there is no evidence of the "l".
      These instances lead me to believe it is quite possible that the recorder also misheard the "ear" when Barnett must have said "hair".
      One reporter does observe that Barnett spoke with a stutter.

      I think many of us have theorized that "ear" really meant "hair", but to date I do not recall anyone offering up some alternate examples of phonetic mistakes within the text to support the conclusion.

      Regards, Jon S.
      Regards, Jon S.
      "
      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
        These instances lead me to believe it is quite possible that the recorder also misheard the "ear" when Barnett must have said "hair".
        One reporter does observe that Barnett spoke with a stutter.

        I think many of us have theorized that "ear" really meant "hair", but to date I do not recall anyone offering up some alternate examples of phonetic mistakes within the text to support the conclusion.

        Regards, Jon S.
        Jon,what do you think of the info once posted by SPE -that Barnett elaborated at inquest that he identified MJK's ears by their peculiar shape?
        http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...7&postcount=55

        Comment


        • #5
          Thankyou Debs.

          I do remember Stewart making that comment (wouldn't have known where to find it though - thankyou).

          But, if that is true, ...doesn't that beg the question how on earth could a handful of reporters write "hair", if they 'truly' heard Barnett say "by the peculiar shape of the ears" - (note, the plural).

          I must admit I do not know who Tom Robinson was (how do we know he was there?), but he called the witness Bennett, not Barnett, and if Barnett used a word like "peculiar" isn't it strange how no members of the press, not even the official recorder actually picked it up?

          If anyone heard him say "by the peculiar shape of the......" it doesn't matter what word followed that sentence, no-one is going to write "hair".

          I find way too many questions with Robinson's observation.

          Don't some early reports inform us that the ears were cut off?
          Regards, Jon S.
          "
          The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
          " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
          Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

          Comment


          • #6
            Aqui, no alli.

            Hello Jon. Now that I'm in the proper place, I will reiterate--excellent!

            Cheers.
            LC

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
              Thankyou Debs.

              I do remember Stewart making that comment (wouldn't have known where to find it though - thankyou).

              But, if that is true, ...doesn't that beg the question how on earth could a handful of reporters write "hair", if they 'truly' heard Barnett say "by the peculiar shape of the ears" - (note, the plural).

              I must admit I do not know who Tom Robinson was (how do we know he was there?), but he called the witness Bennett, not Barnett, and if Barnett used a word like "peculiar" isn't it strange how no members of the press, not even the official recorder actually picked it up?

              If anyone heard him say "by the peculiar shape of the......" it doesn't matter what word followed that sentence, no-one is going to write "hair".

              I find way too much wrong with Robinson's observation.

              Don't some early reports inform us that the ears were cut off?
              Well, it does included moi in the quote saying that hair and eyes had the most hits,Jon.

              Comment


              • #8
                Another question, Jon...sorry but I find this topic fascinating.
                Maybe I'm muddled here but in some papers- didn't Maria Harvey say she was out drinking with MJK until 7.30pm and then they parted, Kelly going off in the direction of Leman St?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  Well, it does included moi in the quote saying that hair and eyes had the most hits,Jon.
                  I noticed

                  Do you know who this Tom Robinson was, and how do "we know" he was present?
                  Regards, Jon S.
                  "
                  The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                  " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                  Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                    Another question, Jon...sorry but I find this topic fascinating.
                    Maybe I'm muddled here but in some papers- didn't Maria Harvey say she was out drinking with MJK until 7.30pm and then they parted, Kelly going off in the direction of Leman St?
                    You can check out those stories in Daily News, Irish Times, St. James Gazette, Star & Times, all on 10th November
                    Regards, Jon S.
                    "
                    The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                    " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                    Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Actually Debs, I had wondered if there was a reason why Harvey left her bonnet with Mary, likely not for cleaning.

                      Mary was then seen wearing the bonnet by Mrs Prater, so maybe Harvey was right, Mary intended to go down Leman St. way?

                      So why was she not seen wearing the same bonnet by Cox at 11:45?
                      We are led to believe it was raining then, so wouldn't you think she would be wearing it when its raining?
                      Regards, Jon S.
                      "
                      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lynn Cates View Post
                        Hello Jon. Now that I'm in the proper place, I will reiterate--excellent!

                        Cheers.
                        LC
                        Thankyou Lynn, just patience and persistence.
                        Regards, Jon S.
                        "
                        The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                        " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                        Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Excellent stuff, Jon

                          I thought of doing something similar many moons ago but other commitments, the volume of work required, and the vagaries of life scuppered any progress. In any event, I’m sure I wouldn’t have produced such a comprehensive compilation.

                          I look forward to giving your sterling work the serious, in-depth reading it so clearly deserves.

                          Thanks again, and very well-done, Jon.

                          Best wishes
                          alex
                          But for me, in my impenetrable mantle, the safety was complete. Think of it – I did not even exist!
                          (HJFSotC – SCoDJaMH – RLS, 1886)
                          https://www.amazon.com/author/alexchisholm
                          http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B006JFY5TC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thankyou Alex.
                            Yes, a task born of frustration, inspired by necessity, but directed by cowardice.

                            Macdonalds Inquiry was the shortest of the bunch. If I had chosen to compile any one of Baxter's Inquiries it may have consumed the rest of my life

                            Have a great weekend, Jon S.
                            Regards, Jon S.
                            "
                            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              One word I left untouched which troubled me was the word used to describe Kelly's father's position at the Iron works, Gauger.

                              In most case the press described him as a "gaffer", only the Echo wrote "ganger", which is a word I am not familiar with.
                              Is this a Welsh word?

                              As we can see, the word written below 'father', looks like this..



                              The third letter which appears to be a 'u' could possibly be an 'n', of which there are several examples within the text already..
                              'when' 'young' 'London' 'name'.



                              Is Ganger a word anyone is familiar with?
                              Regards, Jon S.
                              "
                              The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                              " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                              Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                              Comment

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