Discussion Thread For Jon Smyth's Mary Kelly Compilation

[Debra Arif]

Actually Debs, I had wondered if there was a reason why Harvey left her bonnet with Mary, likely not for cleaning.

Mary was then seen wearing the bonnet by Mrs Prater, so maybe Harvey was right, Mary intended to go down Leman St. way?

So why was she not seen wearing the same bonnet by Cox at 11:45?
We are led to believe it was raining then, so wouldn't you think she would be wearing it when its raining?

Jon, Yes. Now you come to mention it, leaving it for purposes other than cleaning does seem possible. A hat isn't a garment anyone would leave for 'washing' like the other clothing, certainly.

Why did Maria Harvey later seem to change her story? Or drop some aspects of it at least?

[Debra Arif]

One word I left untouched which troubled me was the word used to describe Kelly's father's position at the Iron works, Gauger.

In most case the press described him as a "gaffer", only the Echo wrote "ganger", which is a word I am not familiar with.
Is this a Welsh word?

As we can see, the word written below 'father', looks like this..



The third letter which appears to be a 'u' could possibly be an 'n', of which there are several examples within the text already..
'when' 'young' 'London' 'name'.



Is Ganger a word anyone is familiar with?

Ganger is a word associated with navvies and road builders-nowadays tarmac layers too. Gangers travel around in groups (gangs) looking for short term contract work together. I'm not sure if it could be applicable in an iron works though.

[Phillip Walton]

Ganger is another word for 'foreman', it is still used today in some instances such as refuse collection where the person in charge is a ganger.

[Debra Arif]

Yes, that sounds right, Phil. It seems to have been connected to a person in charge of hiring casual labour, in the past.

[Wicker Man]

Jon, Yes. Now you come to mention it, leaving it for purposes other than cleaning does seem possible. A hat isn't a garment anyone would leave for 'washing' like the other clothing, certainly.

Why did Maria Harvey later seem to change her story? Or drop some aspects of it at least?

Hi Debs.

There does seem to be some confusion in the press about when Harvey last saw Kelly. Was it about 7:30 or later about 10:30-11:00, stories differ.

And whats the reason behind Harvey leaving a pawn ticket for 2s, was this her way of lending Kelly some money for the evening?, and leaving her bonnet too. This sounds like Mary had planned to go out but didn't want Joe to know about it and Harvey was providing the means.

When a woman says to her friend, "Well, I'll not see you again this evening" (but she has left her 'money' and a bonnet), might that not suggest the opposite?
Harvey was just gesturing in front of Joe, because he wouldn't want Mary going out, and especially not with another prostitute like Harvey?


And thanks for the 'ganger' explanation, and thanks to Phil too. Maybe it was something I knew when a kid, I've just forgotten, who knows.
Been away from England so long some things are hazy