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Bridget Kelly~MJK~Pros & Cons

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  • Debra & Gary: I think there's a heck of a good story here for 'Ripperologist'. Bridget looks like she isn't MJK but there's a real nice story here. We can get more information on Bridget perhaps and in continuing to develop her story it could actually lead to MJK. Bridget's story is a tale of struggle and difficulty and, I think, ultimately a level of success. At least she wasn't an "inmate" at the time of her death, someone gave detailed information about her family and she wasn't buried in potter's field. It looks like she lived in New York for almost fifty years.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
      Debra & Gary: I think there's a heck of a good story here for 'Ripperologist'. Bridget looks like she isn't MJK but there's a real nice story here. We can get more information on Bridget perhaps and in continuing to develop her story it could actually lead to MJK. Bridget's story is a tale of struggle and difficulty and, I think, ultimately a level of success. At least she wasn't an "inmate" at the time of her death, someone gave detailed information about her family and she wasn't buried in potter's field. It looks like she lived in New York for almost fifty years.
      Anna,

      I wonder whether BK's US descendants know anything of her colourful past in the East End? Or of her father's service in the British Army during the Crimean war?

      I hope this thread is kept alive, even though the question of whether BK might be MJK has probably been answered in the negative.

      Gary

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      • These births were all in manhattan and parents names given as John murphy and Bridget Kelly.
        Mary 1894
        Mary Alice 1898
        John Michel 1900
        John f Murphy 1891
        Katherine Murphy 1903


        If these are some of Bridget's children, John F died a year after the 1910 census on 12th April 1911. He was single when he died.
        On the 1910 census there seems to be a discrepancy about whether john was 14 or 19. He would have to have been 19 for the death record to be him.

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        • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
          These births were all in manhattan and parents names given as John murphy and Bridget Kelly.
          Mary 1894
          Mary Alice 1898
          John Michel 1900
          John f Murphy 1891
          Katherine Murphy 1903


          If these are some of Bridget's children, John F died a year after the 1910 census on 12th April 1911. He was single when he died.
          On the 1910 census there seems to be a discrepancy about whether john was 14 or 19. He would have to have been 19 for the death record to be him.
          The John on the census is shown as a paver with the Municipal Department in 1910.

          If he is the one who died in 1911, then his poor old ma had lost 6 out of 7 children.

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          • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            The John on the census is shown as a paver with the Municipal Department in 1910.

            If he is the one who died in 1911, then his poor old ma had lost 6 out of 7 children.
            The one who died was a paver too.

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            • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
              The one who died was a paver too.
              Do we know what he died of?

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              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                Do we know what he died of?
                No. Unfortunately that isn't given in the index:

                Event Date 12 Apr 1911
                Event Place Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
                Gender Male
                Age 20
                Marital Status Single
                Race White
                Occupation paver
                Birth Year (Estimated) 1891
                Birthplace New York
                Burial Date 15 Apr 1911
                Cemetery Calvary Cemetery
                Father's Name John Murphy
                Father's Birthplace Ireland
                Mother's Name Bridget Kelly
                Mother's Birthplace London

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  No. Unfortunately that isn't given in the index:

                  Event Date 12 Apr 1911
                  Event Place Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
                  Gender Male
                  Age 20
                  Marital Status Single
                  Race White
                  Occupation paver
                  Birth Year (Estimated) 1891
                  Birthplace New York
                  Burial Date 15 Apr 1911
                  Cemetery Calvary Cemetery
                  Father's Name John Murphy
                  Father's Birthplace Ireland
                  Mother's Name Bridget Kelly
                  Mother's Birthplace London
                  London? Shame it didn't say Chatham or Kent.

                  Would a US marriage index/cert give the bride's father's occupation?

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                  • I found the record for the 19 year old paver also. Wasn't sure when I found it, what I had found for sure.

                    One thing notable, except for the name Mary, this family didn't use names from Bridget's family, like Patrick, Ellen, Anne. I could understand BK having had a son Edward, not repeating that, but there are two named Mary.

                    There is a very sympathetic story here that can stand on its own. Family might take an interest and all sorts of things could come to light.

                    It is still possible MJK was a sister of BK. I'd sure like to know if sister Mary had the middle name Jane or Janet.
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                      London? Shame it didn't say Chatham or Kent.

                      Would a US marriage index/cert give the bride's father's occupation?
                      The certificate should do, Gary.
                      There must be more than one couple with the same names in the same area because the John Michel born 1900 Manhattan to John Murphy and Bridget Kelly was born before John F Murphy died. Repeats in names of children are normally after the death of an earlier child with the name and wanting to keep that name in the family.
                      There was also a couple of the same names having children in Manhattan 20 years earlier and there could be overlap there.

                      I noticed what Anna commented on too- that there isn't much repeating of family names from Bridget's side.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                        The certificate should do, Gary.
                        There must be more than one couple with the same names in the same area because the John Michel born 1900 Manhattan to John Murphy and Bridget Kelly was born before John F Murphy died. Repeats in names of children are normally after the death of an earlier child with the name and wanting to keep that name in the family.
                        There was also a couple of the same names having children in Manhattan 20 years earlier and there could be overlap there.

                        I noticed what Anna commented on too- that there isn't much repeating of family names from Bridget's side.
                        I suppose it would be too much to hope for that we might find a BM whose father's occupation was Private, 77th Regiment of Foot, but even just soldier would be encouraging.

                        I've come across some amazing photos of Crimean War soldiers. The 77th aren't too well represented, but there are a lot of Scots who look amazing. I'll post one or two on the Victorian attire thread.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                          I suppose it would be too much to hope for that we might find a BM whose father's occupation was Private, 77th Regiment of Foot, but even just soldier would be encouraging.

                          I've come across some amazing photos of Crimean War soldiers. The 77th aren't too well represented, but there are a lot of Scots who look amazing. I'll post one or two on the Victorian attire thread.
                          Yes but I doubt that would happen even on the real BK's marriage certificate. It would probably be labourer or maybe army pensioner included, with 'deceased' in brackets.
                          I haven't been able to locate a marriage for them yet, have you?

                          Just looked at the thread, nice pics.
                          re medals:
                          Patrick Kelly was awarded the Crimean medal and one clasp for Sebastopol also Turkish medal.

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                          • I went through a bunch of old papers last night looking for anything of interest in the New York papers of the times, for BK or BM. Never know what might be found. Perhaps a 19 year old paver was run over by a horse drawn carriage.

                            Our early film makers didn't need to have a series called 'Perils of Pauline'. Bridget Kellys & Murphys had many escapades in New York from 1886-1922. A BK fell off a street car and broke her neck and died. Her companion told the driver to stop but he kept going and ran over her.
                            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                              I went through a bunch of old papers last night looking for anything of interest in the New York papers of the times, for BK or BM. Never know what might be found. Perhaps a 19 year old paver was run over by a horse drawn carriage.

                              Our early film makers didn't need to have a series called 'Perils of Pauline'. Bridget Kellys & Murphys had many escapades in New York from 1886-1922. A BK fell off a street car and broke her neck and died. Her companion told the driver to stop but he kept going and ran over her.
                              I did the same thing, Anna. There must have been some sort of heatwave in the late 1890's and I checked through the newspaper lists of people who were dying daily from the effects of the heat in Manhattan. there were a few Murphys , even a Bridget, but none i could tie up to the family.

                              Comment


                              • A Bridget Kelly was bundled off to some island pre-1900 because she had smallpox. It was during an epidemic and there were lists, by name, of those taken away for quarantine. Problem is she was 43 at the time and that was too big a stretch.

                                My reasoning is there could be any little thing ranging from an accident to a crime, or Bridget being a crime victim. We don't know how her husband died. Or her children. Did they die in a tenement fire? It makes sense to me that Bridget was the sort of character who might have had more excitement~or tragedy~in her life than the average immigrant.

                                What I was REALLY, REALLY hoping for was an 1888 interview, perhaps an unidentified source with initials BK or BM or a barely identified source named Bridey, who remembered life in the East End. But I set the search parameters from 1886 to what is allowed at 1922.
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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