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Who Led the Way?

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  • #16
    Caz and Curryong: Great reasoning. I never thought of it quite that way. Good observations!

    (Going a little bit off this thread I started, I had another thought since Curryong brought up the man seen with Liz by PC Smith. The couple was said to be up Berner St. and across the street rom where the body was found. Somewhere I can't locate right now, it was noted that one of the pocket handkerchiefs Liz had in her jacket pocket had "fruit stains". I know the whole subject of Packer and the grapes is supposed to be questionable and that Liz had not eaten grapes before she died. But I wonder if the man PC Smith saw could have been Grape-Man and if he gave her his handkerchief after he ate the grapes. That wouldn't make him Jack. I just wonder if that could fit together.)
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • #17
      I agree, Packer's statements are not regarded highly by Ripper followers, (or by the police at the time). The question of the grapes is indeed problematic. However, (if Packer was honest) didn't Grape man ask about the price of the grapes and then turned to the woman and said "Which will you have, my dear, black or white? You shall have whichever you like best." Whereupon she chose the black. So it seems to have been her choice. (If she existed of course.)

      It would be a bit ungallant too for the man to then gobble them up in front of her and, to top it off, offer her his fruit-stained hanky!

      As I've said, the grapes are a real mystery. Drs Phillips and Blackwell found no sign of grapes and yet there is the handkerchief. Was Liz a fruit aficionado and had she eaten some apple or juicy pear early in the day that had needed some mopping up and which had by then been fully digested and processed, perhaps?

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      • #18
        I have thought a lot about the grapes. There is some lingering wonder about Liz' mouth, if she had any deformity, etc. I think the autopsy showed a number of missing teeth. Maybe [if it was Liz] she didn't want to eat the grapes for fear of choking. Maybe she was being polite to her escort and agreed to the black grapes but didn't really want them. Maybe she bit into one and it was sour and unpleasant so she politely encouraged her escort to eat all of them. (Only black grapes I knew when I was little were home grown Concords and they had sweet & sour spots and I didn't like them. I assume grapes in Liz' time would have been similar. You know what they say about sour grapes.)

        There are lots of possibilities. Including that it never happened. Or it happened but the woman wasn't Liz.

        Unfortunately the "fruit stains" on the handkerchief aren't well described. Think it was said to be a new handkerchief. Anything these women had that was new should get attention.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • #19
          Liz did have money on her from work she had done earlier in the day - money which was missing upon examination of her body. So where did it go? Did she perhaps spend it on food / fruit? Or was it stolen from her in the attack Schwartz witnessed? Lots of little side points to consider but yes, Matthew Packer has been virtually entirely discredited for a reason.

          Cheers,
          Adam.

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          • #20
            Liz seemed to have had a decent dinner. I always thought she kept the price of a bed and that was why she may have been turning away clients that night. I know that opens other cans of worms. If she wasn't prostituting, why was she hanging around on a dark street, talking to men? Etc. There are always the little points we don't know and if we knew those things we might better understand.

            I have wondered if Liz had a male friend who was inside the club. Was she waiting for him specifically? Was she looking for a replacement for Michael Kidney? (In the same way I have wondered if MJK was looking for/interviewing a replacement for Joe Barnett.)

            (If you list similarities between Liz & Mary you can find more commonalities between them than between all of the others. But in the end, I don't think these similarities lead to any answers. I started my list with things like: born outside of England, professional prostitutes at some times in their lives--as opposed to casual prostitution for the others--, etc.)
            Last edited by Anna Morris; February 8, 2016, 01:01 PM. Reason: add
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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            • #21
              Hi Anna,

              It would hardly be likely that Liz would be the only woman with a partner or "interest" inside the club though, yet according to witness statements she was the only single woman seen in the vicinity at the time. I also seem to recall reading somewhere that partners had been in the club earlier in the night? In saying that, I do think it's possible that Liz was waiting for someone - let's not forget that it wasn't far from the thoroughfare of Commercial Road which was much busier - and she certainly did seem to have made a special effort in regard to her work and appearance that day.

              Cheers,
              Adam.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Adam Went View Post
                Hi Anna,

                It would hardly be likely that Liz would be the only woman with a partner or "interest" inside the club though, yet according to witness statements she was the only single woman seen in the vicinity at the time. I also seem to recall reading somewhere that partners had been in the club earlier in the night? In saying that, I do think it's possible that Liz was waiting for someone - let's not forget that it wasn't far from the thoroughfare of Commercial Road which was much busier - and she certainly did seem to have made a special effort in regard to her work and appearance that day.

                Cheers,
                Adam.
                Agree to that! I think Liz had a plan of some kind.
                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                • #23
                  PC Smith told the inquest that very few prostitutes solicited in Berner St. In other words it wasn't a regular beat. I do still tend to think that the man PC Smith saw Liz with was a client however, (maybe a client who had treated her to grapes and/or cachous to give her peace of mind about him).

                  If BS man wasn't Liz's killer (and I do have difficulty with his unRipper-like behaviour in the street, drawing attention to himself) then maybe PC Smith's subject had gone off for a few moments leaving Liz there at the gate, contentedly chewing her cashews. Maybe he'd told her he had to use the club privies then waited in the darkness when he saw the row develop. After the row he rejoined her and they both went into the darkness of the yard.

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                  • #24
                    Curryong:

                    Not a bad thought at all. I hadn't considered the possibility that Liz had simply been left alone for a few moments by a fellow she was already with. Either way, at least we agree that the behaviour of Schwartz's first man is out of character with JTR.

                    Cheers,
                    Adam.

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                    • #25
                      Curryong: Your idea has a good feel to it. We always need to account for the cachous. I learned that when I was new here. Lynn always brought up the cachous. Lots of ideas about Liz' murder never fit together all the way. Your idea is workable.

                      I have thought of the cachous in relation to the grapes before. If the man bought grapes and she didn't like or want them, maybe he gave her cachous. She didn't have any grapes in her system.
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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