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Frederick Wildbore- Whitehall Torso Witness

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    Where this really gets interesting is when you throw John Arnold into the mix. John Arnold was a newsvendor peddling his news at the Charing Cross Post Office. This would be directly across the street from the Whitehall discovery. When he first broke his story of the Pinchin Street murder (2 days early) he was asked where he got his information. His first statement was he had heard it from a police inspector in Whitechapel Road. Later he altered that to an ex-member of the metropolitan police. Arnold happened to be drinking at the King Lud public house and it was supposedly when he left the pub he encountered this informant.


    That's where John Meiklejohn comes in. John Meiklejohn was known to frequent the Strand and Fleet street areas. In testimony in his Old Bailey trial for turf-fraud in 1877 this was said: "No"—it was at twelve at noon on 28th September I saw Meiklejohn at the King Lud—I had never before used the public-house to which we went from the Kentish Town station—if I were taken there I could point it out—the landlord noticed our conversation, and put in the word Newmarket, and I said something about cattle market— So Meiklejohn was familiar with this pub and had used it for shady dealings in the past.

    Meiklejohns Private Investigative Office was located at 45, Heaver Road, Falcon Road, Battersea. Using the distance tool in google maps, Meiklejohns office was about 600 yards from the residence of Frederick Wildbore (map below). Meiklejohn, as most know, was a disgraced former police inspector for the Metropolitan Police detective force.

    Here is the map showing the location of Meiklejohn's office on Heaver Road, Falcon Road and Wildbore further down on Maysoule.

    fascinating stuff Jerry. But what do Arnold and Miklefohn have to do with Wildbore?

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    • #32
      Thanks Gary for the Tottenham info. I found a couple of the census records you mentioned. It looks like two of the daughters were born in Tottenham. The address given was Netherton Road which looking at a map is just north of the junction of Eade Road and Seven Sisters.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
        Very thought provoking thread.

        The Route in particular looks very suggestive.

        So we now need a motive I guess.

        Time for further research, I would have a go myself but am snowed under with other stuff at present, posting at the moment is a light release from that.


        Steve
        Thanks Steve,

        Working on it.

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        • #34
          What bothers me about the torso murders is that it is assumed that it could not be Jack because the M.O. is different. So? The torso murders could have been committed in a controlled indoor environment like Mary Kelly where being caught was not a factor. Unlike back alleys and well traveled streets. Personally I think Jack was the torso murderers apprentice, but like a lot with this ancient case, it's a gut feeling and just talk. However I am not beholden to that hypothesis as noted in my opening paragraph.
          "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." -Arthur Conan Doyle

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            fascinating stuff Jerry. But what do Arnold and Miklefohn have to do with Wildbore?
            Hi Abby,

            Nothing unless Wildbore was involved in the case somehow. I was interested to see his address in 1888 was so close to Meiklejohn's office. John Arnold is the only person of the three that was known to be involved in the Pinchin torso case. I am only theorizing that Meiklejohn was the Inspector/ ex- member of Metropolitan Police that Arnold ran into outside the King Lud pub.

            On a map if one draws a straight line from Netherton Road in Tottenham (Wildbore's address at least in 1881/82) to his next known address in Maysoulse Rd, Battersea, coincidentally it crosses almost exactly through St. Pancras Lock where body parts from the Rainham torso were discovered in 1887. Also, and this is a stretch (as is the rest of this I guess), if the 1873 torso was a deed of the same guy in the 80's murders, his address in Battersea was almost exactly where the larger portions of her trunk were thought to be deposited in the River Thames. Maybe Wildbore chose his new address in Battersea for a reason? As Gary pointed out, Maysoule Road is very close to Rose Hill where Polly Nichols resided as a servant to the Cowdrey's in May of 1888.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by QJ Coy View Post
              Personally I think Jack was the torso murderers apprentice, but like a lot with this ancient case, it's a gut feeling and just talk.
              Thanks for joining in QJ,

              Interesting thought, here. I've often suspected these two series as a few men working toward the same goal.

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              • #37
                The thing that strikes me about Wildbore, in connection to the Whitehall case, is he was working the week before in that same vault. He admits it wasn't difficult for him to get there but to a stranger it would be. He noticed the package a day before and said nothing. No other witnesses claim to have seen the package in the vault when they went in to do various tasks. A locker had apparently been arranged for tools to be stored so they would not get stolen. One witness claims he had only heard of one theft the whole time he was working there. Despite this, Wildbore kept his tools in that vault because he felt they were safer there than the locker. He also claimed the package was in the open when it appears it was actually placed underneath some hoarding that formed, in what I picture, an "A" shape. Finally, Wildbore decides to point out the package to another man and it is discovered to be remains from a woman.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                  Hi Abby,

                  Nothing unless Wildbore was involved in the case somehow. I was interested to see his address in 1888 was so close to Meiklejohn's office. John Arnold is the only person of the three that was known to be involved in the Pinchin torso case. I am only theorizing that Meiklejohn was the Inspector/ ex- member of Metropolitan Police that Arnold ran into outside the King Lud pub.

                  On a map if one draws a straight line from Netherton Road in Tottenham (Wildbore's address at least in 1881/82) to his next known address in Maysoulse Rd, Battersea, coincidentally it crosses almost exactly through St. Pancras Lock where body parts from the Rainham torso were discovered in 1887. Also, and this is a stretch (as is the rest of this I guess), if the 1873 torso was a deed of the same guy in the 80's murders, his address in Battersea was almost exactly where the larger portions of her trunk were thought to be deposited in the River Thames. Maybe Wildbore chose his new address in Battersea for a reason? As Gary pointed out, Maysoule Road is very close to Rose Hill where Polly Nichols resided as a servant to the Cowdrey's in May of 1888.
                  thanks Jerry

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                  • #39
                    I hope I don't get gigged for this but there is a lot of clutter. Clutter obfuscates. Ethnocentric is not the way. This case calls for a swift mind, or a swifter apprentice? How can a case be solved unless we actually dissect? The answer is in the culture, the prim and proper that came before us and were smarter.
                    "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." -Arthur Conan Doyle

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      Thanks, Jerry. Well, I did say "perhaps" My main point, in any case, was speculating as to why a man who lived to be 79 stopped when he did - namely, that he might have found contentment in his marriage. That could apply as much to a serial philanderer as to a "one-off" torso killer.
                      The Killer might have stopped because of the Arnold debacle? Liz Jackson was identified, then someone starts blabbing their mouth. He might have become too paranoid

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                      • #41
                        An interesting observation Jerry.
                        The contractors John Grover and sons were based in Islington, very close to the Reagent's canal.




                        Steve

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                        • #42
                          J Grover and Son, Wilton Works

                          Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
                          An interesting observation Jerry.
                          The contractors John Grover and sons were based in Islington, very close to the Reagent's canal.




                          Steve
                          Thank you for this, Steve. I never bothered to find the location of their yard. I am not positive this map shows the exact location, but it must be close by the name, Wilton Square. The circle on the map represents Wilton Square and the arrow points to the direction up the Regents canal to the St Pancras Lock (some of the Rainham parts found here), which was not too far from here. Looking at the map I see a few Timber Yards near the City Road Basin, also. Could be one of his locations?

                          I also found a legal case involving John Grover in the early 1900's where he had some timber stolen from him. He kept a surplus of timber in the Surrey Commercial Docks near Limehouse. Not sure if he would have had that storage in the timeframe we are discussing?

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                          • #43
                            I also wanted to mention that the construction of New Scotland Yard apparently began sometime in 1887. I can't find exact dates, but I find that an interesting coincidence that corresponds to the date of the first discovery (Rainham) of the torso series.

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                            • #44
                              Jerry

                              We must not forget that at this stage canals were still heavily used for the transportation of heavy goods. The regents canal was connected to both the Thames and the Grand Union canal and thus onto Birmingham.

                              It would be interesting to see if any material for Scotland's yard came via canal or even river. However i seriously doubt such information exists.

                              The possability of a link to the contractors seems a very real possability for many of the Torso murders.



                              Steve

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                              • #45
                                Hi Jerry and all who have contributed research.

                                Fascinating stuff. Definately a thread where the phrase ‘watch this space’ applies.
                                Regards

                                Michael🔎


                                " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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