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Frederick Wildbore- Whitehall Torso Witness

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Michael Banks View Post
    Hi Jerry and all who have contributed research.

    Fascinating stuff. Definately a thread where the phrase ‘watch this space’ applies.
    Thanks Mr. Banks!

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    • #47
      In the book, Richard Norman Shaw By Andrew Saint, I found the following regarding the dates for construction of Scotland Yard.


      d: des 1886 etc; foundations exec 1887-8; superstructure 1888-90

      ctr: John Grover & Son, c/w George Eraut



      So it looks like it was designed in 1886 and foundation work began in 1887-8 and the rest completed 1888-90.

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      • #48
        In Timber and Plywood, Vol. 10 February 8, 1890 I had found that John Grover & Son along with J.T Chappel were the contractors for the rebuilding of the Leman Street Police Station on the former site of the Garrick Theatre. A search on the internet now comes up empty for that publication. The only thing I can find is that the contractor originally for the work was Messrs. Garlick and Horton but for some reason I seem to remember they couldn't complete the work on time. I could be imagining that, though. An exact date is not given when the construction began other than it was underway before April 1890 but if, for example, it began as early as September 1889 then it becomes more interesting given the location being very near the Pinchin arches.

        Note: I may have seen Grover and Chappel tendering bids on the project in this publication and not actually winning the bid, but I can't remember.

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        • #49
          I hesitate to even post this but the more pieces that add up....

          On the night of Alice McKenzie's murder she had a conversation with Margaret O'Brien in the lodging house and "she told them that she had had a pint of stout-and-mild with a man whom she knew at Tottenham that afternoon in the public-house adjoining the Cambridge Music Hall, and that she was going back to the same place, as she had promised to meet him again."

          Wildbore was living in Tottenham in the early 80's. He was also born in Peterborough, a place Alice was known to visit.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
            I hesitate to even post this but the more pieces that add up....

            On the night of Alice McKenzie's murder she had a conversation with Margaret O'Brien in the lodging house and "she told them that she had had a pint of stout-and-mild with a man whom she knew at Tottenham that afternoon in the public-house adjoining the Cambridge Music Hall, and that she was going back to the same place, as she had promised to meet him again."

            Wildbore was living in Tottenham in the early 80's. He was also born in Peterborough, a place Alice was known to visit.
            Hi Jerry
            so now with Alice in the mix-do you also lean to the ripper and torso man being the same?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              Hi Jerry
              so now with Alice in the mix-do you also lean to the ripper and torso man being the same?
              I hate to say Alice is in the mix and that is why I hesitated to include that. It was an interesting observation. I've had other ideas about McKenzie as you know.

              I've always felt the possibility they were the same man/men. I lean toward several men committing the crimes in collusion. I know I tend to speculate and use coincidence a lot and for that I apologize. When enough coincidences add up, though, there may be something there. In regard to the torsos, there are some coincidences I have mentioned many times in the past and they seem to fit in somehow. Just not sure how yet.

              One of those coincidences is related to John Arnold. William Wallace Brodie arrived in London on August 22, 1888 after release from Portland Gaol. He arrived at Waterloo Station and immediately found lodging at 2 Harvey's Building, Strand. We know that location, at least in 1889, was also occupied by John Arnold. It was also directly across the road from the construction site of the new police building at Whitehall. Brodie was listed as a carpenter in his prison record. I am wondering if he may have found work at the construction site? There he would have met Fred Wildbore. He left for South Africa shortly before the Chapman murder and returned to England two days before Alice McKenzie was murdered. When he returned he again moved in the Harvey's Buildings address and guess who was living there. Before leaving SA he told a judge he was responsible for the murders of the women in Whitechapel. Although we know that can't be true for most of them, but could he be involved somehow? After admitting to the murder of Alice McKenzie he was remanded for another crime but stated in the courtroom he was "one of the Whitechapel murderers". Maybe he was?

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              • #52
                Here's the whore killer missive :


                To Join JTR Forums :
                Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                  I hate to say Alice is in the mix and that is why I hesitated to include that. It was an interesting observation. I've had other ideas about McKenzie as you know.

                  I've always felt the possibility they were the same man/men. I lean toward several men committing the crimes in collusion. I know I tend to speculate and use coincidence a lot and for that I apologize. When enough coincidences add up, though, there may be something there. In regard to the torsos, there are some coincidences I have mentioned many times in the past and they seem to fit in somehow. Just not sure how yet.

                  One of those coincidences is related to John Arnold. William Wallace Brodie arrived in London on August 22, 1888 after release from Portland Gaol. He arrived at Waterloo Station and immediately found lodging at 2 Harvey's Building, Strand. We know that location, at least in 1889, was also occupied by John Arnold. It was also directly across the road from the construction site of the new police building at Whitehall. Brodie was listed as a carpenter in his prison record. I am wondering if he may have found work at the construction site? There he would have met Fred Wildbore. He left for South Africa shortly before the Chapman murder and returned to England two days before Alice McKenzie was murdered. When he returned he again moved in the Harvey's Buildings address and guess who was living there. Before leaving SA he told a judge he was responsible for the murders of the women in Whitechapel. Although we know that can't be true for most of them, but could he be involved somehow? After admitting to the murder of Alice McKenzie he was remanded for another crime but stated in the courtroom he was "one of the Whitechapel murderers". Maybe he was?
                  Hi Jerry
                  Very interesting and I can’t wait to see how you eventually tie all together and come up with!

                  As you may know, I lean toward the ripper and torsoman being the same. And the “coincidences” with Wildbore, at least for torsoman has certainly got my attention, and now even more especially since you put McKenzie in the possible mix. And yes I think she was at the very least a ripper victim.

                  Keep it up!

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    especially since you put McKenzie in the possible mix. And yes I think she was at the very least a ripper victim.
                    If she was known to him, putatively on friendly terms, why couldn't he have inveigled her into a position where he could have chopped her up and dropped bits of her into the Thames? Instead, we have one of the most tentative "Ripper" murders in the series of Whitechapel Murders.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen"
                    (F. Nietzsche)

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                    • #55
                      Thanks for posting the letter, Howard!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        If she was known to him, putatively on friendly terms, why couldn't he have inveigled her into a position where he could have chopped her up and dropped bits of her into the Thames? Instead, we have one of the most tentative "Ripper" murders in the series of Whitechapel Murders.
                        Hi Sam
                        maybe because his meat house wasn't available? maybe he wanted another street thrill? who knows?

                        tentative? maybe he was interrupted, weak/sick, wasted?

                        right back at ya:
                        why did her killer cut her throat and slash her abdomen?

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Hi Sam
                          maybe because his meat house wasn't available? maybe he wanted another street thrill? who knows?
                          Maybe, but there is no prima facie indication that McKenzie was killed by a torso killer. The Ripper, a Ripper copycat, perhaps.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen"
                          (F. Nietzsche)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Jerry

                            So the lock keeper at the regents canal find suspected it came from the Paddington basin. That takes me in a whole new direction.

                            That being a connection to moving goods by canal.
                            The Paddington basin was the junction with the Grand Union canal, running from Birmingham to the Thames at Brentford. The basin was a major Transshipment point, goods being unloaded and loaded. Barges went on to Brentford, West of the majority of find sites, the prevailing current would carry East. Barges also connected with the Linehouse in the East where goods would be loaded and unloaded onto ships.

                            Could therefore the link not be an individual working for a building contractor but shippers working for the contractor. Maybe the Victims were not from London at all, maybe further North.

                            There certainly seems to be an apparent link to the contractor to almost all the 87-89 cases. At present just coincidence but who knows.


                            Steve

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                            • #59
                              Which,of course, was Sir William Gull's old stomping ground, being the son of a Bargee on that route!

                              “Coincidences are spiritual puns.”
                              ― G.K. Chesterton
                              Thanks for your time,
                              dusty miller

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                              • #60
                                Fight For Prom Queen

                                Assuming the torso murderer wasn't really Jack with more time (indoor kills) than the street murders, I feel the torso murderer and Jack were competing with each other to see who was the most depraved. One thing about the Mary Kelly murder that isn't noted in every retelling is that Jack hung strips of flesh from the nails in the room. This childish attention seeking behavior is more than the murder itself. The dumping of a torso in the basement of a new Scotland Yard building by TorsoMan is a huge middle finger to police as well. If I had to judge, the Scotland Yard dumping wins because of the sheer cheekiness and location. I wonder if either of them upon hearing of each others deeds cheered like they reading the sports scores?
                                "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." -Arthur Conan Doyle

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