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Frederick Wildbore- Whitehall Torso Witness

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  • Sean Crundall
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    This post is for Sean Crundall but relates to the thread.

    From Timber and Plywood Vol. 10, Nov 2, 1889,

    In a recently issued circular Messrs W. Crundall and Co. say:"We are in our usually good position to execute large or small orders for special purposes to all parts of the Kingdom, such as dock, bridge, railway and drainage works, or export orders, having on hand at our various depots at all times a larger stock of pitch pine and Danzig fir log timber than all the other London merchants put together, or indeed, than any other merchants in the Kingdom".

    Wondering if W. Crundall was a relation of yours?
    Hi Jerry,

    Thank you for posting. I did miss your original post.

    Messrs W. Crundall and Co Ltd, in 1889, was William Henry Crundall (1847-1934), my gt uncle, and his younger brother, Albert Edward Bechley Crundall (1863-1950). Previously the company had been known as William Crundall and Sons Ltd. On the death of William senior (their father) in 1888 the company passed to the two brothers. The partnership was dissolved in 1890.

    The family timber business was started c.1817 by James Crundall (William seniors father) in Brixton, Surrey. In later years the business had premises in the City of London and continued to trade into the late 1970's.

    Again, thank you for posting.

    My best wishes,

    Sean.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Hi jer
    two wildbores with the same first name, same occupation with our wildbore eventually living where the other one did in Battersea?

    id be shocked if they weren't related!!

    how old was the other wildbore?

    Iknow you've stated you've thought these were two (or more) men working together. I think something like this it would be more likely that they were related than not.


    perhaps the wildbores worked together with this?
    Robert posted a news clip on Frederick Augustus Wildbore earlier in this thread. He was older. I agree in a good possibility in being related.

    As I have stated before, there were two other Frederick Wildbores in town. One, a surgeon that practiced in St. Pancras and Hackney. Again, he was also an older man born in 1819, IIRC. The other Frederick Wildbore, born 1860, believe it or not was living at 1, Backchurch Lane, Whitechapel the year he was born. The son of a doctor named Samuel Wildbore.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    Hi Abby,

    I have and the best I can do so far is what I have posted here.

    1871- Keyham, Leicester (living with aunt and uncle working as a carpenter)
    1879 to at least 1882- Tottenham (Netherton Road)
    1888 until at least 1911- Maysoule Road, Clapham/Battersea

    Between 1871 and 1879 I don't know. There is another Frederick Wildbore that was a builder/contractor living in Battersea and I am trying to see if they were related? If so, our man could have traveled to live and work with him sometime after 1871 which would put him in the area in question for the 1873 torso.

    I'm am not too sure the '73 torso was part of the series, though. Dr. Bond was involved in that case as well and he didn't seem to link it to the four that were. I'm not ruling it out, just sayin.
    Hi jer
    two wildbores with the same first name, same occupation with our wildbore eventually living where the other one did in Battersea?

    id be shocked if they weren't related!!

    how old was the other wildbore?

    Iknow you've stated you've thought these were two (or more) men working together. I think something like this it would be more likely that they were related than not.


    perhaps the wildbores worked together with this?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    hey Jerry
    just going through this thread agin. this is classic guilty behavior. The killer directing someone else to find the body, or manipulating it so that its found together with someone else.
    Abby,

    The interesting part here is what Wildbore didn't do.

    He was in the vault Monday morning at 6:00 a.m and said he saw what he thought was a workman's coat in that corner of the vault. He said nothing to anyone. He went back in the vault at 5:30 p.m that same evening and said he saw the parcel there and drew his mate's attention to it by lighting a wax vesta. Neither man mentioned anything to anyone at this point. The next morning, Tuesday, he was again in the vault in the morning and saw the parcel and again said nothing. Then he says at 1:00 (2:30 according to other witnesses) Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came to see him in the vault. It was then that he pointed the parcel out to Brown. Brown then told Mr. Cheney, foreman of the bricklayers, who went down and pulled the parcel into the light and discovered it was a body. Upon opening the parcel the men gagged from the smell. Wildbore claims he heard of the discovery 3/4 of an hour after Mr. Brown had seen the parcel (which was 2:30 not 1:00 as Wildbore exclaimed) It was 3:20 by the time the police were notified.

    Also interesting is witnesses state the way down into that vault was by two planks laid side by side. Wildbore stated that he got to the vault by compo floor not by the planks. There was one entrance to the vault that is not talked about much. It was some steps leading into the foundation from the Thames side of the building. It was said to be very dangerous to enter this way, though. I am wondering if this may be where the compo floor was that Wildbore entered?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Thanks Jerry
    so his age dosnt rule him out for the earlier 70's torso series does it?
    have you looked into this possibility also-like where he was living, working etc?
    Hi Abby,

    I have and the best I can do so far is what I have posted here.

    1871- Keyham, Leicester (living with aunt and uncle working as a carpenter)
    1879 to at least 1882- Tottenham (Netherton Road)
    1888 until at least 1911- Maysoule Road, Clapham/Battersea

    Between 1871 and 1879 I don't know. There is another Frederick Wildbore that was a builder/contractor living in Battersea and I am trying to see if they were related? If so, our man could have traveled to live and work with him sometime after 1871 which would put him in the area in question for the 1873 torso.

    I'm am not too sure the '73 torso was part of the series, though. Dr. Bond was involved in that case as well and he didn't seem to link it to the four that were. I'm not ruling it out, just sayin.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    Hi Abby,

    He was born in 1855 so 33 at the time of the Whitehall discovery in 1888.
    Thanks Jerry
    so his age dosnt rule him out for the earlier 70's torso series does it?
    have you looked into this possibility also-like where he was living, working etc?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Hi Jerry
    How old was Wildbore?
    Hi Abby,

    He was born in 1855 so 33 at the time of the Whitehall discovery in 1888.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    The thing that strikes me about Wildbore, in connection to the Whitehall case, is he was working the week before in that same vault. He admits it wasn't difficult for him to get there but to a stranger it would be. He noticed the package a day before and said nothing. No other witnesses claim to have seen the package in the vault when they went in to do various tasks. A locker had apparently been arranged for tools to be stored so they would not get stolen. One witness claims he had only heard of one theft the whole time he was working there. Despite this, Wildbore kept his tools in that vault because he felt they were safer there than the locker. He also claimed the package was in the open when it appears it was actually placed underneath some hoarding that formed, in what I picture, an "A" shape. Finally, Wildbore decides to point out the package to another man and it is discovered to be remains from a woman.
    hey Jerry
    just going through this thread agin. this is classic guilty behavior. The killer directing someone else to find the body, or manipulating it so that its found together with someone else.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    It didn't say in the Lloyd's news clip. Shooting in the dark. I looked at the Esther Bishops that died in 1887/88 but the dates aren't right to put her in her twenties or even close. I did find an Esther Bishop in Rotherhithe b. 1860, but can't find a death.
    Hi Jerry
    How old was Wildbore?

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    It didn't say in the Lloyd's news clip. Shooting in the dark. I looked at the Esther Bishops that died in 1887/88 but the dates aren't right to put her in her twenties or even close. I did find an Esther Bishop in Rotherhithe b. 1860, but can't find a death.
    I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can see anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I didn't really look at Sarah or Esther, Jerry. Can you remember what part of the country Esther was said to be from?
    It didn't say in the Lloyd's news clip. Shooting in the dark. I looked at the Esther Bishops that died in 1887/88 but the dates aren't right to put her in her twenties or even close. I did find an Esther Bishop in Rotherhithe b. 1860, but can't find a death.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    Debs,

    Did you find any family connection with Sarah Bishop and Esther Bishop? Sarah was born in Yeovil, Somersetshire. I guess Esther would have been in her twenties if she was in fact the woman murdered?
    I didn't really look at Sarah or Esther, Jerry. Can you remember what part of the country Esther was said to be from?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    On August 19th 1888, Frederick John Wildbore and Sarah Ann (nee Bishop married Islington 1879) baptised their five daughters all in one go at St John's Wandsworth. Frederick John was a carpenter and his occupation was carpenter. The address given is those records is also 117 Maysoule Rd.
    Oldest daughter Henrietta was born in 1879 and the GRO index shows her mother's maiden name was Bishop.
    Debs,

    Did you find any family connection with Sarah Bishop and Esther Bishop? Sarah was born in Yeovil, Somersetshire. I guess Esther would have been in her twenties if she was in fact the woman murdered?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    By the way, the best I can tell, 1, Backchurch Lane was on the west side of the street were it intersects with Cable Street. This would have been a very easy location to walk with a dead body and dump it in the arch while keeping on eye on where the patrolling officer is.

    Whether or not this property was still owned by the Wildbores in 1889 is probably doubtful, but, who knows?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Dr. Samuel Wildbore

    This is the doctor I am referring to that was practising at 1, Backchurch Lane in 1860. He had a son born in 1860 (Whitechapel) named Frederick. There was also another doctor practicing in Hackney named Frederick Wildbore, just as an FYI. Just to be clear, I know this Frederick b. 1860 is not the same as the carpenter, but I wonder if they were cousins?

    London Morning Post,
    June 4, 1856



    And then this from, The London and provincial medical directory and general medical register (1860):

    WILDBORE, Samuel, 1, Backchurch-Lane, Whitechapel. E- L.S.A. 1858

    Leave a comment:

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