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Frederick Wildbore- Whitehall Torso Witness

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
    Jerry

    So the lock keeper at the regents canal find suspected it came from the Paddington basin. That takes me in a whole new direction.

    That being a connection to moving goods by canal.
    The Paddington basin was the junction with the Grand Union canal, running from Birmingham to the Thames at Brentford. The basin was a major Transshipment point, goods being unloaded and loaded. Barges went on to Brentford, West of the majority of find sites, the prevailing current would carry East. Barges also connected with the Linehouse in the East where goods would be loaded and unloaded onto ships.

    Could therefore the link not be an individual working for a building contractor but shippers working for the contractor. Maybe the Victims were not from London at all, maybe further North.

    There certainly seems to be an apparent link to the contractor to almost all the 87-89 cases. At present just coincidence but who knows.


    Steve
    Hi Steve,

    We still need to explain the land drops somehow. i.e Shelley House, Battersea Park and the vault at Whitehall. I suspected use of a barge in connection with J.T Chappel's company but I couldn't ever figure an explanation how the bargemen got into the vault. It seems to me the bargemen would be dropping their goods off at the timber yards and other yard locations of the contractors who would then proceed themselves to take the goods to the jobsite.

    Comment


    • #77
      This post is for Sean Crundall but relates to the thread.

      From Timber and Plywood Vol. 10, Nov 2, 1889,

      In a recently issued circular Messrs W. Crundall and Co. say:"We are in our usually good position to execute large or small orders for special purposes to all parts of the Kingdom, such as dock, bridge, railway and drainage works, or export orders, having on hand at our various depots at all times a larger stock of pitch pine and Danzig fir log timber than all the other London merchants put together, or indeed, than any other merchants in the Kingdom".

      Wondering if W. Crundall was a relation of yours?

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
        Hi Steve,

        We still need to explain the land drops somehow. i.e Shelley House, Battersea Park and the vault at Whitehall. I suspected use of a barge in connection with J.T Chappel's company but I couldn't ever figure an explanation how the bargemen got into the vault. It seems to me the bargemen would be dropping their goods off at the timber yards and other yard locations of the contractors who would then proceed themselves to take the goods to the jobsite.
        Yes that seems to indicate a possible connection to both the canal system and the contractor.
        All the land based sites are within close proximity of the River, indeed Whitehall backs directly onto it, Cross the road and there it is, we need to remember that there were small docking areas at many points on the River.
        Of course if one is going to dump most in the River, why then dump on land?
        Interesting to note that in two of the land based cases we are dealing with the actual torso not the limbs, does this indicate anything?

        If we just going with the contractor as a possible link, we have to ask then about the parts in the Regents canal, particularly with the lock keeper suggesting the parts may have come from Paddington Basin, far to the West of the Islington location of the contractor's offices.

        I am coming to the position where I see a double connection, the contractor and the canal system. That could of course also link into Wildbore too.
        I think it may be a possible area of interest, certainly one for further research at some stage.

        Steve

        Comment


        • #79
          I wonder what the lock-keeper based his suggestion on. It's not as if canals have a current. Perhaps because there was a lot of unloading/loading at the basin goods occasionally fell into the water there and were subsequently pushed or dragged in the direction of the lock. That may have been his experience of large items ending up in his stretch of the canal.

          But in this case isn't it just as likely that the drop was made close to the lock in the first place?

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            I wonder what the lock-keeper based his suggestion on. It's not as if canals have a current. Perhaps because there was a lot of unloading/loading at the basin goods occasionally fell into the water there and were subsequently pushed or dragged in the direction of the lock. That may have been his experience of large items ending up in his stretch of the canal.

            But in this case isn't it just as likely that the drop was made close to the lock in the first place?
            Hi Gary,

            Could be, I assume the lock keeper was making an assessment based on the direction of travel both before the discovery and in general. We would need to look at the gradient on the canal to allow us to see if such movement seems reasonable.
            There is I beleive no clear reason for the distribution of the parts not in the River, this looks a possibility, but no more than that.
            The Regents Canal find is the real outlier and maybe the key.


            Steve

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
              Interesting to note that in two of the land based cases we are dealing with the actual torso not the limbs, does this indicate anything?
              Although in one of them, and just one (the Whitehall Mystery), a corresponding body part was also found in the Thames.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen"
              (F. Nietzsche)

              Comment


              • #82
                I used this book for maps and stats on Rainham Ferry (where the Rainham torso was found). It has lots of information on London wet and dry docks and useful maps.

                Rainham Ferry is shown on Map 3 at G3
                https://archive.org/stream/particula...search/rainham

                Regent's Dock at Limehouse where the canal meets the Thames at Limehouse is shown on Map 1 F1 https://archive.org/stream/particula...p/search/canal

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  I used this book for maps and stats on Rainham Ferry (where the Rainham torso was found). It has lots of information on London wet and dry docks and useful maps.

                  Rainham Ferry is shown on Map 3 at G3
                  https://archive.org/stream/particula...search/rainham

                  Regent's Dock at Limehouse where the canal meets the Thames at Limehouse is shown on Map 1 F1 https://archive.org/stream/particula...p/search/canal
                  Thanks for that, Debs! That's a keeper.

                  In one report I read the lock-keeper was at St Pancras Lock, in another it was said to be St Mary's lock. Pancras lock was a long way from Paddington Basin, but a short distance away was the Maiden Lane road bridge.

                  The other thing to mention is that the Surrey Docks were just across the river from Limehouse handled a lot of timber.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Here is the article stating what the lock keeper said. He stated that when opening the gates of the lock, the water rushed out basically creating a strong current.

                    Evening News, July 8, 1887

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Here is part of the long article my last post was in. This is an interesting story from a barge captain about the search.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                        I used this book for maps and stats on Rainham Ferry (where the Rainham torso was found). It has lots of information on London wet and dry docks and useful maps.

                        Rainham Ferry is shown on Map 3 at G3
                        https://archive.org/stream/particula...search/rainham

                        Regent's Dock at Limehouse where the canal meets the Thames at Limehouse is shown on Map 1 F1 https://archive.org/stream/particula...p/search/canal
                        These maps are very helpful. Thanks Debs.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          This part of the article precludes the first one I posted about the Lock Keeper so you can see he is talking about the Warwick Bridge (Paddington) area.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                            This part of the article precludes the first one I posted about the Lock Keeper so you can see he is talking about the Warwick Bridge (Paddington) area.

                            Thanks, Jerry.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              Although in one of them, and just one (the Whitehall Mystery), a corresponding body part was also found in the Thames.
                              Gareth,

                              Elizabeth Jackson's torso was found in Battersea Park (dry land) and corresponding parts of her found in the Thames.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                                Gareth,

                                Elizabeth Jackson's torso was found in Battersea Park (dry land) and corresponding parts of her found in the Thames.

                                So that's 3 of the Torsos on dry land, is the only one that's not the first?

                                Steve

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