Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Frederick Wildbore- Whitehall Torso Witness

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    Elizabeth Jackson's torso was found in Battersea Park (dry land) and corresponding parts of her found in the Thames.
    Yes, of course. So, in two out of three land-based cases (Whitehall and Jackson), body parts were also found in the Thames. It was in the third land-based case (Pinchin Street) that only a torso was found on land, and nothing in the river. Hope that's right...
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen"
    (F. Nietzsche)

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
      So that's 3 of the Torsos on dry land, is the only one that's not the first?

      Steve
      The Rainham torso, or at least a portion of the torso IIRC, was found floating in the water.

      Also, if anyone is interested in reading where lumber shipments were coming from, going to, contractor ads, Tenders on jobs, etc., this link (Timber and Plywood Vol 10) is a good one and covers each publication from Aug 1889 to about Feb, 1890. I thought I lost it but found it on the Chappell thread. Interesting that a lot of deal shipments came from Finland, Sweden and Germany as well as Honduras and other Central American ports. Also from Canada and America and the UK itself. India Docks seems to be a major import/export stop for these shipments.

      https://books.google.com/books?id=N8...sawing&f=false

      I also stated earlier I thought J. Grover contracted with Chappell on the Leman Street PD building but it turns out they both only submitted tenders and Garlick and Horton won the bid. But, to submit a tender they must have gone to the site to measure and stuff for their bid. I'm thinking they would have been doing this pre-bid submission stuff in mid to late 1889 and the work began in early 1890 until completion of the building in 1891 when it re-opened.

      I should add shipments arrived and left out of the Surrey Commercial Docks and Millwall Docks also.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
        The Rainham torso, or at least a portion of the torso IIRC, was found floating in the water.

        Also, if anyone is interested in reading where lumber shipments were coming from, going to, contractor ads, Tenders on jobs, etc., this link (Timber and Plywood Vol 10) is a good one and covers each publication from Aug 1889 to about Feb, 1890. I thought I lost it but found it on the Chappell thread. Interesting that a lot of deal shipments came from Finland, Sweden and Germany as well as Honduras and other Central American ports. Also from Canada and America and the UK itself. India Docks seems to be a major import/export stop for these shipments.

        https://books.google.com/books?id=N8...sawing&f=false

        I also stated earlier I thought J. Grover contracted with Chappell on the Leman Street PD building but it turns out they both only submitted tenders and Garlick and Horton won the bid. But, to submit a tender they must have gone to the site to measure and stuff for their bid. I'm thinking they would have been doing this pre-bid submission stuff in mid to late 1889 and the work began in early 1890 until completion of the building in 1891 when it re-opened.
        It gets more and more interesting.

        Most of the materials apart from the facing to Whitehall comes by boat, the Thames and it's canal system just looks so possible in the distribution.
        Who by is another matter.

        Maybe Pinchin street is the odd one? Not related to either series, but designed to look like either.

        Intriguing but certainly not conclusive, however to me it points away from a common Ripper/ Torso man.


        Steve

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
          It gets more and more interesting.

          Most of the materials apart from the facing to Whitehall comes by boat, the Thames and it's canal system just looks so possible in the distribution.
          Who by is another matter.

          Maybe Pinchin street is the odd one? Not related to either series, but designed to look like either.

          Intriguing but certainly not conclusive, however to me it points away from a common Ripper/ Torso man.


          Steve
          Steve,

          As you suggested earlier in the thread, it may explain why some of the women were not reported missing. They could have come from virtually anywhere aboard a ship, barge, etc.

          Comment


          • #95
            Although, Elizabeth Jackson's trunk was separated in to three sections and it was the uppermost section of the trunk that was found in Battersea Park and was small enough to fit in the garden hand basket that was used to transport it from the park. The rest of the trunk down to the pelvic division was found in the Thames, as was the pelvis itself. The area of Battersea Park where the upper torso section was found was 200 yards from the Thames in an area closed off to the public and it was believed it was likely to have been thrown there from the embankment or Albert Bridge IIRC, So, it may not have been intended to be a land find.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
              Although, Elizabeth Jackson's trunk was separated in to three sections and it was the uppermost section of the trunk that was found in Battersea Park and was small enough to fit in the garden hand basket that was used to transport it from the park. The rest of the trunk down to the pelvic division was found in the Thames, as was the pelvis itself. The area of Battersea Park where the upper torso section was found was 200 yards from the Thames in an area closed off to the public and it was believed it was likely to have been thrown there from the embankment or Albert Bridge IIRC, So, it may not have been intended to be a land find.
              Thanks Debs,

              Which leads me to believe the parts were dumped on a route to and from work/home and why Wildbore intrigues me so much.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                Thanks Debs,

                Which leads me to believe the parts were dumped on a route to and from work/home and why Wildbore intrigues me so much.
                Yes, Jerry. Someone crossing the bridge either way and taking the opportunity to dump portions over the side makes sense.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  Yes, Jerry. Someone crossing the bridge either way and taking the opportunity to dump portions over the side makes sense.
                  Debs,

                  I think I have asked you this before but I will do it again. The Rainham torso could have been deposited in the water much further west and washed down river to it's location. Seeing that some of her other parts were found near Battersea, do you feel her torso (Rainham piece) may have been put in the water near the Albert bridge like parts of the rest of her body and other cases may have been, but traveled undetected as far as Rainham?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                    Thanks Debs,

                    Which leads me to believe the parts were dumped on a route to and from work/home and why Wildbore intrigues me so much.
                    Could well be. The offices in Islington may explain the canal, but I am still intrigued by the possible canal use.


                    Steve

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                      Debs,

                      I think I have asked you this before but I will do it again. The Rainham torso could have been deposited in the water much further west and washed down river to it's location. Seeing that some of her other parts were found near Battersea, do you feel her torso (Rainham piece) may have been put in the water near the Albert bridge like parts of the rest of her body and other cases may have been, but traveled undetected as far as Rainham?
                      Jerry,
                      One portion of the trunk in the Rainham case was found near Battersea Park steam boat pier. Quite a coincidence. The remains found at Rainham Ferry were said may have been pushed along by a barge or other river vessel without being noticed but sometimes getting my head around those bits further East being the found first, is difficult.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                        Jerry,
                        One portion of the trunk in the Rainham case was found near Battersea Park steam boat pier. Quite a coincidence. The remains found at Rainham Ferry were said may have been pushed along by a barge or other river vessel without being noticed but sometimes getting my head around those bits further East being the found first, is difficult.
                        Was it the same Steamboat Pier that Claude Mellor had walked off when he discovered the Jackson thigh in the Shelley Gardens, by chance?

                        Comment


                        • Another theme in addition to construction that pops up a lot in these torso cases is Journalists and newsvendors. i.e The journalists finding the leg in the Whitehall vault, Mellor finding the thigh and the John Arnold story. Then you have a journalist pegged as the author of the Dear Boss letter in another series of mutilation crimes at the same time.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                            Was it the same Steamboat Pier that Claude Mellor had walked off when he discovered the Jackson thigh in the Shelley Gardens, by chance?
                            Not sure, Jerry. but I assume so.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                              Not sure, Jerry. but I assume so.
                              Me too.

                              Joshua Rogan on Casebook just posted an interesting news article about a similar story to the John Arnold story that was told to a Morning Advertiser reporter about the Whitehall torso. Same thing, two days before the discovery a man fitting Arnold's description came to the Morning Advertiser (Pinchin torso was a Herald reporter) and reported a murder in the police building vault and asked for money for his information. Two days later the body was discovered. I had never heard this before.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                                Me too.

                                Joshua Rogan on Casebook just posted an interesting news article about a similar story to the John Arnold story that was told to a Morning Advertiser reporter about the Whitehall torso. Same thing, two days before the discovery a man fitting Arnold's description came to the Morning Advertiser (Pinchin torso was a Herald reporter) and reported a murder in the police building vault and asked for money for his information. Two days later the body was discovered. I had never heard this before.
                                Thanks Josh and Jerry. It's a very interesting story and although I hate to throw cold water on things, it is retrospective. A reference at the time of the Whitehall case would be nice.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X