Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Probable murder in the Tottenham Court case

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Probable murder in the Tottenham Court case

    I believe this has to be referring to the Tottenham torso case in 1884. The injuries to the face are strikingly similar to those inflicted upon Catherine Eddowes.

    East London Press,
    November 8,1884



  • #2
    Looks like it was the Tottenham Court torso. Here is a more detailed account. I had never heard the pieces of the body were packed into something small and flattened as if they were laid on top of each other.

    The Magnet
    Nov 10, 1884


    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
      I believe this has to be referring to the Tottenham torso case in 1884. The injuries to the face are strikingly similar to those inflicted upon Catherine Eddowes.

      East London Press,
      November 8,1884


      What an interesting article, Jerry! I have never read anything like that on these cases...until some of JtR's work.

      So...what man was in prison or travelling from about 1884 to 1888? I DO think that is another angle to consider. How much better to leave his artistic work displayed on the streets rather than have to turn it into small pieces to discard with difficulty!

      Considering the prison angle, the 1884 case could reflect a killer with a residence and 1888's JtR could represent a man released from prison having to live tenuously in the East End.

      Of course these are just my opinions but there is room for research. It has always been frustrating that nothing really points to what did JtR do before he killed Polly. I have searched the Old Bailey, looking for...well, for anything of interest along these lines but never felt I found anything to work with.
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
        What an interesting article, Jerry! I have never read anything like that on these cases...until some of JtR's work.

        So...what man was in prison or travelling from about 1884 to 1888? I DO think that is another angle to consider. How much better to leave his artistic work displayed on the streets rather than have to turn it into small pieces to discard with difficulty!

        Considering the prison angle, the 1884 case could reflect a killer with a residence and 1888's JtR could represent a man released from prison having to live tenuously in the East End.

        Of course these are just my opinions but there is room for research. It has always been frustrating that nothing really points to what did JtR do before he killed Polly. I have searched the Old Bailey, looking for...well, for anything of interest along these lines but never felt I found anything to work with.
        Hi Anna,

        Yes, I think the prison angle is a possibility. Whoever was murdering these women had a great chance of being in trouble at some point in his life.

        This is the only torso case during the period that the head was found. It's interesting that the killer disfigured the face in such a way, post mortem. And even more interesting is the similarity of this face disfigurement to that of Catherine Eddowes. He must of had her packed up in a suitcase or something from the sounds of it and then walked/carted up the road throwing out the parts at random spots.

        Comment


        • #5
          Jerry: The disfigurement in the 1884 case also reflects some of what happened to MJK. Her nose was cut I think and there were many slashings on her face.

          So we need to find a case where a man received four years of hard labour for offensive littering?

          When I combed through the Old Bailey I was thinking about cases like manslaughter, violence against women, violence in general, battering, choking, strangulation, etc.
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
            I believe this has to be referring to the Tottenham torso case in 1884. The injuries to the face are strikingly similar to those inflicted upon Catherine Eddowes.
            The injury inflicted on her nose sounds similar, but then there are only so many ways one can hack at a nose. The torso victim's other facial injuries, however, are quite different, and apparently fewer in number than Kate's (to say nothing of Kelly's even more extensive facial wounds).

            Eddowes' (or Kelly's) killer could easily have given her a "Joker's Grin" if he wanted to, but didn't; likewise he could easily and quickly have gouged or cut out any of his victims' eyes, but apparently chose not to. In the cases of Eddowes and Kelly, he nicked the eyelids and damaged the eyebrows respectively, but left the eyes themselves completely unscathed.

            Fascinating find, however. Thanks, Jerry.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen"
            (F. Nietzsche)

            Comment


            • #7
              The summary I am posting here is from Lloyds weekly September 7, 1884. It is a rather long article.

              In the early part of Sept. 1884 the body of an 8 year old girl was found near a house at 32, Clarendon Gardens, Maida Vale. About a hundred yards from her body in a neighbors garden, was found a black portmanteau. The suitcase had coagulated blood and what appeared to be flesh or something decomposed inside. At first it was thought the young girl had been hidden in the suitcase but after examination of her body it was found she died of natural causes and had no wounds or blood about her body so the suitcase was regarded as not relevant to that case. A young boy had found the suitcase in a garden nearby and discarded it and it was never found again.

              The Tottenham Court torso was discovered at the end of October 1884. First indications were she had died 4 to 6 months prior. I'm not sure if that was the final conclusion, but that's where this bloody suitcase found about two months before the torso comes in. Below is a map of Clarendon Gardens (Blue). It happens to be very close to an area where the St. Pancras Lock Keeper felt the parts from the Rainham torso may have been deposited into the Regents Canal. Somewhere near the Warwick Lock (Red). I wonder if this suitcase could be connected to the Tottenham Court torso and if our killer frequented the Paddington neighborhood?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                The injury inflicted on her nose sounds similar, but then there are only so many ways one can hack at a nose. The torso victim's other facial injuries, however, are quite different, and apparently fewer in number than Kate's (to say nothing of Kelly's even more extensive facial wounds).
                Thanks Gareth,

                True, but the question is, why hack at the face at all on a victim that you cut the head off? Isn't cutting the head off supposedly to hinder identification? He targeted the same basic areas on the face. The eyes, nose cheek and mouth. At least compared to Eddowes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As always, JD.... very good work and thanks for sharing !
                  To Join JTR Forums :
                  Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Some of the cuts to Eddowes' face were somewhat artistic in nature. MJK was slashed. The Tottenham head sounds like it was a quick mutilation. I always wondered why the killer would take the time to make somewhat thoughtful cuts to Kate in Mitre Square yet in a private, closed room, slash Mary's face beyond recognition. We could suggest he knew Mary but that reasoning seems to impede fact gathering more than not.
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                      As always, JD.... very good work and thanks for sharing !
                      Thank you, Howard!

                      Here is the story of the portmanteau.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Jerry:

                        Slightly off topic but the reaction of the two servants is probably the way quite a few people would have responded, servant or otherwise, to finding something they suspected of being an element of a crime ,in any large city.

                        Thank you for posting that last article too.
                        To Join JTR Forums :
                        Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Interesting stuff, Jerry
                          I haven't looked at the Tottenham cases in too much details but in the past I got the impression that at inquest some real evidence was produced to show the cases were abortion related? I could be mis-remembering but it always interested me that it was definitely possible to determine if this was the case, similarly in the case of Elizabeth Jackson they established that an abortion had not taken place.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                            He targeted the same basic areas on the face. The eyes, nose cheek and mouth. At least compared to Eddowes.
                            Well, there are only so many bits of a face that can be targeted and, as I've suggested, the wound to the torso victim's mouth was rather different (apparently a "Joker's Grin", as I put it), and the eyes gouged/cut out, as opposed to the eyelids being slightly nicked.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen"
                            (F. Nietzsche)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                              Interesting stuff, Jerry
                              I haven't looked at the Tottenham cases in too much details but in the past I got the impression that at inquest some real evidence was produced to show the cases were abortion related? I could be mis-remembering but it always interested me that it was definitely possible to determine if this was the case, similarly in the case of Elizabeth Jackson they established that an abortion had not taken place.
                              Thanks Debs,

                              Dr. Samuel Lloyd said there was no way to determine what the cause of death was, however, the jury stated in summary that although the medical officers could not assign a cause of death, they believe the woman did not die from natural causes but that an abortion had been attempted or completed. Not sure how they came to that conclusion if the medical officers didn't conclude that?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X