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The Hawthorn Mystery-Legs and arms found

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  • The Hawthorn Mystery-Legs and arms found

    An interesting case I found from down under in late 1892.(Hawthorn, Melbourne Australia) I will try to post a few of the snippets I have found about this case later.

    The interesting things about this dismemberment case are the similarities in dissection with some of the London cases; i.e neatly cut joints with disarticulation. The doctor used the term, first rate butcher, or something close to that when describing the skill of the person cutting up the body. Identity of the victim was never found, the body was cut up immediately after death, etc. One large difference to that of the London mysteries is the doctor believed the body to be that of a small man while others believed it to be a large woman. Only the two arms and legs were found.

    Below is a short clip of one report. It caught my eye for two reasons. One, it had a sketch of the writing the killer left, which I always find of interest and two, the writing was scribbled on what appeared to be a dress pattern. The Whitehall torso had a few mentions of the dress of the woman being of an older Bradford pattern. Was this killer(Hawthorn) trying to say something about dress patterns?

    Most press reports state the writing said, "Lot No. 1", instead of "Job No.1". The press also noted the use of two "I's" in Ripper.




  • #2
    Thanks Jerry !
    To Join JTR Forums :
    Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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    • #3
      Very interesting, Jerry. Thanks for posting this.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
        An interesting case I found from down under in late 1892.(Hawthorn, Melbourne Australia) I will try to post a few of the snippets I have found about this case later.

        The interesting things about this dismemberment case are the similarities in dissection with some of the London cases; i.e neatly cut joints with disarticulation. The doctor used the term, first rate butcher, or something close to that when describing the skill of the person cutting up the body. Identity of the victim was never found, the body was cut up immediately after death, etc. One large difference to that of the London mysteries is the doctor believed the body to be that of a small man while others believed it to be a large woman. Only the two arms and legs were found.

        Below is a short clip of one report. It caught my eye for two reasons. One, it had a sketch of the writing the killer left, which I always find of interest and two, the writing was scribbled on what appeared to be a dress pattern. The Whitehall torso had a few mentions of the dress of the woman being of an older Bradford pattern. Was this killer(Hawthorn) trying to say something about dress patterns?

        Most press reports state the writing said, "Lot No. 1", instead of "Job No.1". The press also noted the use of two "I's" in Ripper.




        All these bodies with their limbs carefully cut and dis-articulated should give us a clue as to how they perhaps died and who had sufficient anatomical knowledge to be able to perform these limb removals.



        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
          All these bodies with their limbs carefully cut and dis-articulated should give us a clue as to how they perhaps died and who had sufficient anatomical knowledge to be able to perform these limb removals.



          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
          Hi Trevor.

          The authorities tried to claim they came from dissection rooms but after investigation found that to be impossible. I will post articles when I get a chance explaining this. In fact, the glimmer of hope was a man names James Stark, I believe was his name, that died close to the time of the legs being found and his body was never recorded as being taken to the mortuary. They were sure this was the mystery man and it was all a hoax. In the end, James Stark's body was found (complete) after his corpse had been sent to the hospital for use by the medical school and not to the mortuary. A clerical error was to blame.

          The doctor in charge, Dr. Embling, stated the mutilator did not have the skill of a surgeon and a doctor would not cut and disarticulate as was done on these legs. Very similar to the Pinchin torso and others, the doctor stated the mutilator was not sloppy but had skills like a first rate butcher would have.

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          • #6
            To add a bit to my last post, the fact the body was cut up so immediately after or near death gave the doctors a clue that the body could NOT have been awaiting post mortem because they must wait a few days for identification of the body before it would even begin the process of being dissected by students or doctors. Also, no bodies minus arms or legs were accounted for at any of the institutions.

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            • #7
              Very interesting, Jerry.

              I think the several cases of dismemberment cases where the cuts were described as neat and disarticulated etc show that there are in fact only a number of ways to dismember a corpse, and such cases will tend to appear similar. Which was also one of I think Trevorís medical contact Dr Biggs? points about the torsos. They might look alike but most people setting about dismembering someone will hit upon the same method. So it does not necessarily show anything.

              As I understand it, only the lower legs from the knees down were found? What about the arms, were they only found from elbows down?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
                Very interesting, Jerry.

                I think the several cases of dismemberment cases where the cuts were described as neat and disarticulated etc show that there are in fact only a number of ways to dismember a corpse, and such cases will tend to appear similar. Which was also one of I think Trevorís medical contact Dr Biggs? points about the torsos. They might look alike but most people setting about dismembering someone will hit upon the same method. So it does not necessarily show anything.

                As I understand it, only the lower legs from the knees down were found? What about the arms, were they only found from elbows down?
                Thanks Kattrup,

                Yes. Elbows down.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                  Hi Trevor.

                  The authorities tried to claim they came from dissection rooms but after investigation found that to be impossible. I will post articles when I get a chance explaining this. In fact, the glimmer of hope was a man names James Stark, I believe was his name, that died close to the time of the legs being found and his body was never recorded as being taken to the mortuary. They were sure this was the mystery man and it was all a hoax. In the end, James Stark's body was found (complete) after his corpse had been sent to the hospital for use by the medical school and not to the mortuary. A clerical error was to blame.

                  The doctor in charge, Dr. Embling, stated the mutilator did not have the skill of a surgeon and a doctor would not cut and disarticulate as was done on these legs. Very similar to the Pinchin torso and others, the doctor stated the mutilator was not sloppy but had skills like a first rate butcher would have.

                  Hi
                  Did you read the very interesting article on Victorian body dealers written by Elizabeth Hurren which was posted on here a week or so ago. You would be surprosed on what went on with bodies and body parts back then.


                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                    Hi
                    Did you read the very interesting article on Victorian body dealers written by Elizabeth Hurren which was posted on here a week or so ago. You would be surprosed on what went on with bodies and body parts back then.


                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                    I must have missed that Trevor. I'll go take a look at it. Thanks.

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                    • #11
                      Hah!
                      Literally round the corner from my house. Too late for Deeming, maybe someone trying to cash in on his trial.
                      Thanks for your time,
                      dusty miller

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dusty Miller View Post
                        Hah!
                        Literally round the corner from my house. Too late for Deeming, maybe someone trying to cash in on his trial.
                        Hey Dusty.

                        Didn't know you lived there. Nice to hear! The whole story reminded me of the Forbes Winslow suspect and the lady's letter to him regarding the man she was engaged to that claimed he was the ripper. He supposedly left England in late 1889 on the ship Murrambidgee and learned the medical trade from Dr. John Blair at Scotch College. Winslow was so sure of this man that he met William Grant Grainger to prove he was not the ripper in favor of his "Melbournean"suspect that attended St. Pauls Cathedral in the Hawthorn area. The lady sent a letter to Sir Robert Anderson regarding this man (in 1884 IIRC) and Anderson shuffled it off as no importance. The man left Australia for Durban South Africa where he worked for the railway.

                        In another thread here I obtained and looked at the crew list for the Murrambidgee (supposedly the man worked his passage) and compared the clues the lady stated in her letter but came to no real conclusion if he was onboard that ship in late 1889. A man named H.J Bride was one of the only Melbourne native born men aboard the ship as a member of the crew. The lady stated the suspect was a native of Melbourne.

                        Anyways, maybe more to look at there perhaps?

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