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Element 1- In Women's Clothes

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  • Element 1- In Women's Clothes

    This section is intended to present elements within the Whitechapel Murders which are, in your view, unique to crimes prior and after their commission.

    Just to give an idea of what I'm looking at....lets take the practice of policemen dressing up as women in order to capture the killer.

    Like others, I've read a lot of material on crime skeins and individual murders prior to the 1888-189? series. I've yet to find a case of police officers dressing in feminine garb acting as lures or lurking in women's clothes in an effort to snag a killer.

    That's not to say this is etched in stone. There MAY have been a case prior to this one where the decision to go in drag was utilized. Do you know of one ?

    Please feel free to start a thread for another element that you feel is unique to the Whitechapel Murders whenever possible.

    Thanks and have fun !
    To Join JTR Forums :
    Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

  • #2
    How, do we actually know that this happened during the Ripper case?

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    • #3
      Hi Howard and Robert et al.

      The idea of coppers in drag is often brought up, but I think more often in a theatrical or fictional setting rather than in the real live case of 1888.

      I agree with Howard's statement that, as he says, "I've yet to find a case of police officers dressing in feminine garb acting as lures or lurking in women's clothes in an effort to snag a killer."

      We should also factor in the "macho" nature of most policemen in the day. Would they assent to dressing up as women? My guess is that they would not! In fact, if a copper did so, I think he would be afraid that he might give his fellow officers the idea that, as we say in England, he is "playing for the other side"!

      Cheers

      Chris
      Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
      https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

      Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
      Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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      • #4
        I agree, Chris. When Mary Kelly reportedly said that she had worked in a gay house, I'm sure she didn't mean that she was a police station cleaning lady.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
          I agree, Chris. When Mary Kelly reportedly said that she had worked in a gay house, I'm sure she didn't mean that she was a police station cleaning lady.
          Is "gay house" the actual term that MJK used? Of course "gay" had a vastly different connotation back then. When you hear the term "Gay Nineties" it doesn't connote Cleveland Street.
          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
          https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
            How, do we actually know that this happened during the Ripper case?

            Looks like there was a case of a police officer dressing up in women's clothes while trailing a possible WM suspect, Mr Doncaster.

            Daily News
            United Kingdom
            17 October 1888


            THE ASSAULT ON A DETECTIVE.

            At the Clerkenwell Police-court yesterday, James Phillips, 37, and William Jarvis, 40, both cab washers, were charged on remand, before Mr. Bros, with cutting and wounding Detective-sergeant Robinson, G division, in Phœnix-place, St. Pancras, early in the morning of Tuesday, the 9th inst. Jarvis was further charged with assaulting and wounding Henry Doncaster, a private person, on the same occasion.-Mr. Keith Frith, instructed by Mr. Ricketts, appeared for the defence.-The evidence given at the first hearing of the case was to the effect that at the time of the occurrence Detective-sergeant Robinson was on duty disguised in woman's clothing, watching, in company with Detective-sergeant Mather, Mr. Doncaster, and others, a man whose actions had laid him open to suspicion in connection with the East-end murders. While so engaged they were attacked by the two prisoners; Robinson received two stabs in the face from Jarvis, and kicks in the arm and ribs from Phillips, while Doncaster received a stab in the face, and had his jaw dislocated.-Michaelo Rainole, an Italian ice cream vender, said he was with the detectives on the morning of the 9th watching "the man who was supposed to be the man who killed all the women" when the two prisoners came up and asked what they were doing. Robinson took off the woman's hat which he was wearing and said "I am a police officer." He saw Jarvis strike Robinson in the face and cause it to bleed, and he also saw Jarvis, who had something in his hand, deal Doncaster a side blow in the face. Phillips called out to some men in a yard close by to come to his assistance, and witness went to fetch some more police. Cross-examined, the witness denied that the disturbance had begun by the prisoners asking Robinson and the others what they were doing near the cabs, and by Robinson replying "Mind your own business," and thrusting Jarvis back by putting his fist against his chin. It was Jarvis who struck the first blow. He saw Jarvis on the ground, and heard some men cry out to Robinson, "Shame! Leave off hitting him." Jarvis was in a fainting condition and was bleeding when taken to the police station.-Giuseppe Molinari gave corroborative evidence.-Detective Charles Mather, G Division, said he was in company with Robinson. At the time of the occurrence he was watching the suspected person; but he saw the two prisoners come up to Robinson, and he heard some one say, "What are you messing about here for?" Robinson replied, "I am a police constable; you know me. We are watching something." The same voice then said, "Why, it's Robinson." The witness then described the assault, corroborating the previous witnesses. He arrested Jarvis, who tried to throw him. Afterwards Jarvis, who was bleeding, began to feel giddy. Witness admitted, in cross-examination, that none of the plain-clothes officers had shown their warrant cards to prove themselves detectives. They had, he said, no opportunity of doing so.-Frank Mew, police-constable 301 G, arrested Phillips, who said, when told he would be taken to the police-station, "All right, governor, it is not the first time I have been there."-The prisoners, who reserved their defence, were committed for trial, Jarvis on the charge of unlawfully wounding, and Phillips for assaulting the police.-Mr. Bros consented to allow bail, two sureties in 20/.

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            • #7
              Thank you JD. I was away from the screen when Robert asked that question.

              That would be Detective Sgt. Louis Robinson.



              "I agree with Howard's statement that, as he says, "I've yet to find a case of police officers dressing in feminine garb acting as lures or lurking in women's clothes in an effort to snag a killer."

              I said that in order to point out that I hadn't found an instance of a policeman dressing up like a woman prior to the Whitechapel Murders.
              To Join JTR Forums :
              Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                Thank you JD. I was away from the screen when Robert asked that question.
                Sorry Howard,

                I didn't mean to answer for you. I was searching in particular for any relevant cases and found this one so I posted it.

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                • #9
                  Jerry

                  I don't think the 'Mr. Doncaster' in the Daily news article was a suspect. Not sure who he was..

                  Thanks for pitching in with the story, buddy....I'm glad you did.
                  To Join JTR Forums :
                  Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                  • #10
                    Thanks for that, Jerry.


                    Still, I'm not sure how Robinson lived this down, or what authority remained to him in the years after.

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                    • #11
                      I think How should do a reconstruction of this.

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                      • #12
                        He's looking for a hat that suits him as I type.

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                        • #13
                          You're a mind reader, Bob.


                          To Join JTR Forums :
                          Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                          • #14
                            How Brown IS Zero - I mean, How Brown IS Zorro.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                              Jerry

                              I don't think the 'Mr. Doncaster' in the Daily news article was a suspect. Not sure who he was..

                              Thanks for pitching in with the story, buddy....I'm glad you did.
                              Ditto. Great find, Jerry!

                              Cheers

                              Chris
                              Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                              https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                              Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                              Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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