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Emily Horsnell

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  • #61
    Good one, Debs....I don't remember the case of Emma M.A. Kelly and I look for those types of assaults.



    The name of the constable from M division ( Stephen Leach) sounds familiar...sorry to divert....I think there was a Leach in H Division.
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    • #62
      Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
      Good one, Debs....I don't remember the case of Emma M.A. Kelly and I look for those types of assaults.



      The name of the constable from M division ( Stephen Leach) sounds familiar...sorry to divert....I think there was a Leach in H Division.
      Thanks, How. I usually come across them accidentally and try to keep a note.
      I wonder how many cases of prostitutes being beaten out on the streets by a stranger/s and surviving went unreported?

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      • #63
        Thanks for the picture of the Weaver's Arms Tavern, Roy.

        Thanks for the comments Keith and Maria.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
          But isn't it tge case that an open verdictvmeant it couldn't be determined whether the verdict should be murder or manslaughter (for example), rather than an open verfict implying some sort of lack of care about what happened afterwards so far as any investigation was concerned.
          I think this is correct. I've looked at a few 'open verdict' cases recently and the main thing they have in common seems to be a lack of evidence to show the exact nature of a death but confirming it to be a suspicious death.
          I think Dave was correct when he said right at the beginning that an open verdict was the same as a murder or manslaughter verdict.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
            [ATTACH]13605[/ATTACH]

            This building was the Weaver's Arms tavern, publican William James, where the inquest into the death of Emily Horsnell was held. Today 13 Vallance Road, previously Baker's Row

            [ATTACH]13603[/ATTACH]

            M was the mortuary
            Did anyone spot the ghostly figure in the whatever it is to the right of the sweet shop? Spooky!

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            • #66
              Hi Debs and Edward,

              "I think Dave was correct when he said right at the beginning that an open verdict was the same as a murder or manslaughter verdict."

              Well, as I understand it, there's the open verdict of "we don't know who committed this crime" and then there's the open verdict that went like "we know this person died violently, but we don't know if it was an accident, suicide, or homicide".

              I don't see where they had any evidence of an accident, other than Emily was said to have been drinking. And I don't see where she provoked an attack--they had no evidence. Her having this preexisting condition shouldn't have mattered. People didn't have to walk around in peak physical condition in case they needed to withstand an attack.

              Maybe it was a case where the jurors simply didn't want to ascribe murder if there was any doubt whatsoever, I don't know.

              I guess they would've probably had the same verdict whatever they did, but something basic must've been off at the preliminary level when at inquest you have a coroner saying that he hadn't been aware of the facts of the case.

              Cheers,
              Dave

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              • #67
                Just a little update on a couple of things related to Emily's life.

                In March 1887 Emily was admitted to the Whitechapel infirmary from 19 George St with an inflamed foot. She described herself as wife of Alfred, a cabinet maker, which we already knew.

                Alfred and Emily had married in 1880 but by 1886 Alfred was living with another woman named Rachel. On 7th Aug 1886, Rachel and Alfred had a son named Alfred. He was baptised in Bethnal Green and his parents names given as Alfred and Rachel Horsnell. However, Rachel and Alfred were not legally married until March 1888, Alfred was able to marry Rachel as a widower by then.

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                • #68
                  nice find

                  Hello Debs. Nice find.

                  Little by little these people will become better known.

                  Cheers.
                  LC

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Lynn Cates View Post
                    Hello Debs. Nice find.

                    Little by little these people will become better known.

                    Cheers.
                    LC
                    Thanks, Lynn.
                    We can never really understand these relationships but a husband cosied up with another woman and with an illegitimate child might have a motive to give his wife a severe beating if he came across her? As might his partner.

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                    • #70
                      Or a relative of Rachel's if Emily was causing problems. There are many possibilities - we only have a tiny glimmer with which to judge or evaluate their lives.

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                      • #71
                        motive

                        Hello Debs. Thanks.

                        Well, from my point of view, I prefer "perceived" motive. Thrashing someone should be ruled out a priori.

                        Cheers.
                        LC

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                        • #72
                          Attacked 130 years ago today and died November 10.

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                          • #73
                            I have found another report of the inquest into the death of Emily Hornell. It is similar to the LLoyds report but with a couple of additional details:

                            INQUESTS
                            ALLEGED OUTRAGE IN WHITECHAPEL
                            Mr Wynne E. Baxter held an inquiry at the Weaver's Arms Tavern, Baker's Row, Whitechapel, into the circumstances attending the death of Emily Horsinig [sic], aged 24, a married woman, parted from her husband, who came by her death , it was alleged, by violence. -Mrs. Eliza Ryan said that the lived in a lodging-house, as did the deceased. She was always out at night and in bed all day. On Thursday witness, not seeing deceased, went to her room, and receiving no answer, smashed in the door. Deceased was found lying dead in bed. She had complained to witness of being ill-used on the Saturday night.-John Satchell. lodging-house keeper and propietor of 19, George-street, Spitalfields, deposed that deceased was in the habit of drinking heavily. On Thursday morning he saw her sitting in a corner in the kitchen with her body drawn up to her head, groaning. The deceased told witness that hse had been knocked down and kicked by some men on Saturday night.-
                            Dr. Luke [sic] stated that the deceased died from injuries. He examined her and found extensive bruises down the right side. Her stomach was in a dreadful state, and great violence must have been used to cause such serious injuries. Death resulted from peritonitis caused by the injuries.-
                            The Coroner (to the police officer watching the case): Do you think there is any clue to be obtained as to those men whom it is alleged have kicked her?
                            -The Officer: I should think not.- A verdict that the deceased died from peritonitis, the result of blows, but how these blows were inflicted there was no evidence to show, was returned.
                            The People 20 November 1887

                            In this version there is no mention that Eliza Ryan was the deputy at 18 George Street as the LLoyds article says. I found it interesting that Eliza says that Emily went out all night and slept all day usually. I was always under the impression that lodging houses kicked the lodgers out every morning. What was the usual practice?

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                              I have found another report of the inquest into the death of Emily Hornell. It is similar to the LLoyds report but with a couple of additional details:

                              INQUESTS
                              ALLEGED OUTRAGE IN WHITECHAPEL
                              Mr Wynne E. Baxter held an inquiry at the Weaver's Arms Tavern, Baker's Row, Whitechapel, into the circumstances attending the death of Emily Horsinig [sic], aged 24, a married woman, parted from her husband, who came by her death , it was alleged, by violence. -Mrs. Eliza Ryan said that the lived in a lodging-house, as did the deceased. She was always out at night and in bed all day. On Thursday witness, not seeing deceased, went to her room, and receiving no answer, smashed in the door. Deceased was found lying dead in bed. She had complained to witness of being ill-used on the Saturday night.-John Satchell. lodging-house keeper and propietor of 19, George-street, Spitalfields, deposed that deceased was in the habit of drinking heavily. On Thursday morning he saw her sitting in a corner in the kitchen with her body drawn up to her head, groaning. The deceased told witness that hse had been knocked down and kicked by some men on Saturday night.-
                              Dr. Luke [sic] stated that the deceased died from injuries. He examined her and found extensive bruises down the right side. Her stomach was in a dreadful state, and great violence must have been used to cause such serious injuries. Death resulted from peritonitis caused by the injuries.-
                              The Coroner (to the police officer watching the case): Do you think there is any clue to be obtained as to those men whom it is alleged have kicked her?
                              -The Officer: I should think not.- A verdict that the deceased died from peritonitis, the result of blows, but how these blows were inflicted there was no evidence to show, was returned.
                              The People 20 November 1887

                              In this version there is no mention that Eliza Ryan was the deputy at 18 George Street as the LLoyds article says. I found it interesting that Eliza says that Emily went out all night and slept all day usually. I was always under the impression that lodging houses kicked the lodgers out every morning. What was the usual practice?
                              Nice find, Debs.

                              I think the normal practice was to turf lodgers out each morning, but I’m sure I’ve seen mention of some reserving a booth for a week at a time. Perhaps in that case there was more flexibility.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                                Nice find, Debs.

                                I think the normal practice was to turf lodgers out each morning, but I’m sure I’ve seen mention of some reserving a booth for a week at a time. Perhaps in that case there was more flexibility.
                                Thanks, Gary. I knew that some paid for lodgings for a week at a time but it never occurred to me that this might allow the lodger to be able to stay in bed during the day.

                                Btw, I should have put 19 George Street not 18.

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