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Crime Scene and Victim Conundrums.....

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  • Crime Scene and Victim Conundrums.....

    In order to compress most of the existing questions relevant to each murder case ( Beginning with Emma Smith and including the murder victims of 1889,who may or may not have been Ripper victims ).....this thread is established to compile lists or single questions regarding each separate murder.

    For example...the victim who is, at present,most interesting to me is Kate Eddowes.

    Some of the questions I would add to a list would be and obviously,they aren't unique....but for the sake of gauging everyone else's views on the murders....

    1. Why....if she decided to engage in prostituting herself right after being released from Bishopsgate.....did she either decide to perform this act in Mitre Square or allow herself to be led there? Why go in that direction ?

    2. "Something" tells me that this last act of prostitution was in relation to getting her man,Kelly's,boots out of hock. Is this a naive thought? Was it money for the following morning,when Kate might want more "hair of the dog" ?

    3. Some in the community believe that Mrs.Eddowes was sincere when she is alleged to have claimed that she "knew" who this Ripper fellow was...I'm skeptical for the fact that it would have been healthier for her to simply tell the authorities and let them take the responsibility of investigating this person. How about you?

    4. I'm aware of,as well as others are, of the differing opinions on exactly why Kate upon her release didn't go back to where her partner,Kelly,was residing for the night.

    Some argue that its uncertain she was in the act of solicitation....while others consider this to be obvious.

    Certainly,had Kate traveled in the direction of where Kelly was lodging,she would or might have found a practical "spot" to conduct this sort of business...

    However,could it have been that this was an area ( Mitre Square ) that she had frequented before and felt comfortable with?

    Or was someone persuasive enough to interrupt her journey home and lead her in that direction ?

    This might be the only instance of a Ripper murder where the awareness of police beats was important...a position that I personally have shifted to considering the comments regarding "police beats" made by Colin over on Casebook some weeks back.

    Mr.Rumbelow was of the opinion that prostitutes,in general,led their clients to their contact points and he felt that in the case of Jack The Ripper that this still held true.

    But Colin made some important observations....some fairly obvious ones,in dismantle this idea.

    Was it necessary for Tabram,Nichols,Chapman,Stride and Kelly to "know police beats" on those nights they were killed? Or was it required only in the instance of "regular" tricks on the street...

    Was Eddowes the lone instance of this necessity?
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  • #2
    Well I'll have a go at answering question #3....

    I personally don't believe that Kate knew who the Ripper was. I believe that she truthfully thought she knew who he was, but it was probably nothing more than a rumour being spread around amongst the other women she knew. The finger was being pointed at a lot of people in 1888, after all.

    Even if we assume for a moment that she did know the true identity of JTR, I suspect the reason she didn't go to the police about it was that she was afraid that if they couldn't prove he was the killer, then he really would come after her. Or maybe Kate had links to people who in turn had links to JTR, and if she dobbed him in to the police, even if he was unable to go after her himself, he would have other 'contacts' who would instead. There wasn't much to protect a person of Kate's status.

    Again, it was probably nothing more than a rumour amongst the women at the time.
    As far as the reason why she ended up in Mitre Square goes, I believe she had returned to soliciting - probably to buy more alcohol - and the sighting by Lawende & Co. could be viewed as supporting this idea. Mitre Square may have been a spot that she was familiar with, and/or had successfully solicited at before. I don't think JTR would have led her there from the opposite direction, simply for the reason that it was too risky for him - more time and oppurtunity for him to be spotted walking with her.

    Whatever happened that night, it all comes down to a very unfortunate case of wrong place, wrong time for Kate Eddowes - and for all of Jack's victims.



    • #3

      Are you of the opinion that Kate,more or less,walked without premeditation to the point where she met the Ripper and from there, they then mutually accepted that section of Mitre Square to conduct business...perhaps having previous business conducted there,but not necessarily with each other? Sort of like when two people meet in a park ( with devices for kids to play with....swings,sliding board,monkey bars,the whole mishpuches)....they gravitate to the swings.

      Would you agree?
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      • #4

        That's right. I don't think that Kate had planned on going directly to Mitre Square - rather she was simply wandering about looking for 'clients' who she could make some money from, and then there was Jack, who was out looking for a second victim of the night (I tend to agree with the theory that his killing of Liz Stride wasn't complete, therefore he wasn't satisfied and went looking for another) and they crossed each other's path outside the passage leading to Mitre Square - the testimony of Joseph Lawende supports this theory.

        Out of all of the murders, it's a fair argument that Kate's in Mitre Square was the one which was the most dangerous for Jack - he had roughly 11-12 minutes only in between the sighting by Lawende and the discovery of the body in which to get Kate into the Square, kill and mutilate her, and flee from the scene. Whether he knew this or not is debatable - he did have a lot of luck - but it must have been a close call.
        If Jack had organised earlier to meet up with Kate or something, surely he would have tried to make it for a place where there wasn't so much risk involved. I don't think this would be the case anyway, as IMO he didn't originally intend to commit a second murder that night. Because of all that, a meeting by chance outside Mitre Square seems the most likely scenario.

        It does raise an interesting point though - if we assume that Kate was soliciting from the moment she was released, how likely is it that she'd had other men with her before she met with Jack? If she'd had some business already, wouldn't she have had enough money to pay for lodgings, or alcohol if that was what she wanted? Why stay out if she didn't need to?



        • #5
          ...."how likely is it that she'd had other men with her before she met with Jack? If she'd had some business already, wouldn't she have had enough money to pay for lodgings, or alcohol if that was what she wanted? Why stay out if she didn't need to?"--Adam

          Hmm...good long does a knee trembler last? How much would she have recieved for a minute or two of fencehuggin' ? It ain't like they were going to the All Fours Motel for the night.

          Yeah...its possible I guess that she may have figured to rack up more than one or two clients before heading home...
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          • #6
            Hey How,

            From what I've read, the amount of money prostitutes made from each client varied, depending on how desperate the prostitute was for money, and how kind (or how rich) the man was. In Kate's case, considering she was getting up there a bit in her age, she might not have earnt as much money from each man as someone younger and prettier would have done. Still, I would have thought that even a couple of clients surely would have given her enough money to pay for lodgings.

            Maybe she got a bit greedy and wanted enough money for lodgings and alcohol, so she went looking for more men. That, or things were just very quiet that night. Surely she wasn't still drunk enough that something happened like she wasn't sure where she was going?

            I'll see what info I can find on how much prostitutes like Kate would have roughly earnt per client....does anyone else have any idea?