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Ripper 'claimed earlier victims'

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  • Ripper 'claimed earlier victims'

    In case you missed it, a new book by Trevor Marriott has just been released:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7601145.stm

    Among the claims in the book are there where earlier victims than the canonical 5 and organs were removed from the victims after they were murdered and awaiting post mortem examination.

  • #2
    In his book, The Evil Within, Mr Marriott claims that Jack the Ripper did not remove internal organs from two of his victims.
    Traditionally, the serial killer is alleged to have removed organs from the bodies of his victims, including his second "official" victim Annie Chapman and Catherine Eddowes, his fourth, with a degree of medical precision.
    But Mr Marriott said: "The organs were not removed by the killer at the crime scenes but by person or persons unknown for medical research at some point between the bodies being removed from the crime scenes and the post mortems taking place some 12 hours later. "In both these cases the bodies had been left alone and unattended outside makeshift mortuaries." -----from the promotional excerpt.


    Anyone want to take the first swipe at the underlined statement? Okay, I will...

    A doctor could take an organ ANYTIME he wanted to, if a doctor is presumed to have been the ghoul.

    Based on the premise that the victims in 1863 and 1872 may have been Ripper victims and that no organs were taken in their murders, then Mr. Marriott's idea is expanded to suggest that since Nichols and Stride had none taken, then its presumed that Eddowes and Chapman didn't really either...by the Ripper...but by some guy with a market for used organs...organs in the bodies of people who may have had diseases and organs that were in bad shape,period.
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    • #3
      Former murder squad detective Trevor Marriott pointed to the "double event murders"- where both victims were found within 12 minutes of each other.
      "It is highly unlikely that the murderer would have stopped a second time to murder a second victim in such a short space of time," he said.
      Mr Marriott made the comments during a presentation in Londonderry on Monday. He added: "My findings suggest that there may well have been two other similar murders after the police closed their file." -- Mr. Marriott,from March of 2004

      In his book, The Evil Within, Mr Marriott claims that Jack the Ripper did not remove internal organs from two of his victims. --from URL that String found

      Everyone can change their views and unless Mr. Marriott doesn't consider the absence of the heart in Kelly's case...and that Tabram wasn't a victim...then who are the two who didn't have organs removed from?

      Chapman,Eddowes,Kelly did. That leaves Stride who he apparently discounts...and Nichols the lone victim who didn't.

      Oh well...

      Plus, he had stated that there were two murders after the police closed their files in 2004.
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      • #4
        Getting on this organ thing for a minute here...

        Nina has been trying her damnedest to find a reference to a doctor and a Philadelphia doctor at that to answer the mystery if to who this doctor or interested individual was who was searching for organs a little before the WM.

        She found a burned down hospital in the city here a little before the WM, say around two years prior...., but thats as far as she's gotten to date. We thought of all the circumstances which would cause one to go elsewhere in search of organs, such as uteri.

        A fire would do the trick, no doubt. But for some doctor to actually be interested in replenishing his hospital's stock of organs and go abroad to do so is too much of a stretch,considering Philadelphia was the leading medical city in the US and one of the most important medical centers in the world at that time. There would be organs out of the wazoo at any of the numerous Philadelphia hospitals at that time.

        So...that leaves some unaffiliated yutz with esoteric reasons for uteri or wombs.
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        • #5
          I was trying to find a reasonable reason for doing such a thing myself.
          Surely there were organs galore available. Prisons, hospitals and asylums probably had people dying every day surely a doctor wouldn't have to steal organs.
          The only other person as How says would be some kind of ghoul. I'm not saying it was Tumblety but he kept organs of course. BTW did anyone discover where he obtained them?
          Not having read the book it's hard to comment but was there any other organ removal being done and if not why were only females and prostitutes at that being targeted?
          It's a bit of a leap, even worse than some of my theories and that's saying something.

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          • #6
            I was trying to find a reasonable reason for doing such a thing myself.
            Surely there were organs galore available. Prisons, hospitals and asylums probably had people dying every day surely a doctor wouldn't have to steal organs.

            Mr.Marriott may not be stating that a doctor stole the organs,but a subordinate. Thats highly doubtful

            The only other person as How says would be some kind of ghoul. I'm not saying it was Tumblety but he kept organs of course. BTW did anyone discover where he obtained them?

            Well,String,old bean...We don't know if Tumbelty kept organs and the chances are that he didn't if we examine the recollections of individuals who traveled with him. Yes, if Tumbelty traveled without taking them with him,thats another thing too....but there's no proof,other than Conover's claims which appeared fortuitously after the original statement of an American doctor in search of organs at a London hospital came out.

            Not having read the book it's hard to comment but was there any other organ removal being done and if not why were only females and prostitutes at that being targeted?
            It's a bit of a leap, even worse than some of my theories and that's saying something.

            There are really two "major" concepts about the usage of these organs. One was the Tumbelty collection idea...and the other the organs for purposes in black magic rituals, of which there are no rituals known that DO use the organs of prostitutes. I didn't say "no rituals that don't include organs from general individuals"....but from prostitutes. There are none known despite what D'Onston says in the December 1st article which appeared in the Pall Mall Gazette.

            We get nowhere without taking some risks in our theories,String. Don't feel that your theories aren't worth presenting. You is the man.
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            • #7
              Is Mr. Marriott still claiming it was Feigenbaum that was the killer of the C5, and these extra 2 latest victims?

              I would love to know why the long time between killings, and why he suddenly stops. Why not kill five in 1863, or five in 1872?

              Marriott states in his book "The 21st Century Investigation" that Feigenbaum's "Habits-MAD"

              Would a mad man go so long between murders?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Mike Covell View Post
                Is Mr. Marriott still claiming it was Feigenbaum that was the killer of the C5, and these extra 2 latest victims?
                I was wondering that too Mike, as Feigenbaum isn't mentioned in the press releases. has anyone got the book?
                If yes, I'd like to know what support Trevor offers for linking Feigenbaum to these earlier murders, just wonder if he mentions the Bremen ships registry at all?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mike Covell View Post
                  I would love to know why the long time between killings, and why he suddenly stops. Why not kill five in 1863, or five in 1872?
                  Indeed, and the implications for the Ripper's age are interesting too. Unless he was a precocious child, chances are that he'd have been at least in his mid-20s in 1863 - making him almost 50, if not older, by 1888.

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                  • #10
                    "In his book, The Evil Within, Mr Marriott claims that Jack the Ripper did not remove internal organs from two of his victims. --from URL that String found

                    Everyone can change their views and unless Mr. Marriott doesn't consider the absence of the heart in Kelly's case...and that Tabram wasn't a victim...then who are the two who didn't have organs removed from?

                    Chapman,Eddowes,Kelly did. That leaves Stride who he apparently discounts...and Nichols the lone victim who didn't.

                    Oh well..."


                    Presumably he means that JACK didn't remove Chapman's and Eddowes's organs, but that someone else did.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                      Presumably he means that JACK didn't remove Chapman's and Eddowes's organs, but that someone else did.
                      That seems to have been Trevor's view in the past - i.e. Jack disembowelled his victims in the streets but that's as far as he went, the organs not being removed until later by somebody else (e.g., a mortuary attendant).

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                      • #12
                        Apparently it is still Feigenbaum who is Marriott's suspect of choice! Marriott claims that Feigenbaum was 54 at the time of the Whitechapel murders in 1888! (21st Cent Investi)

                        Funnily enough Marriott's former police training has taught him to not bother with the witness testimony!

                        Another interesting "fact" made in the 21st Century Investigation book is that Feigenbaum's occupation is.......florist!

                        Weirder still, and no laughing at the back, but in "The only known description of Carl Feigenbaum" this is written....

                        Habits....MAD!

                        I wonder if the lull between murders is due to a nice batch of geraniums being delivered!

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                        • #13
                          In Ripperlogist 43 Chris George has an article on the Philadelphia surgeon, and looks at Dr Howard A Kelly, only to dismiss him as unlikely.

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                          • #14
                            Hi

                            Did you see BBC article on Marriott last Friday? Can be accessed on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7601145.stm

                            Regards
                            Debbie

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                            • #15
                              Thanks for the link,Debbie. I'll check that out. Nice of you to post this....

                              Bob...I may not have that issue of the Rip. Its sounds like one that would be written in late 2003 ( Print version). If I do, I'll let you know. If not, I want you to buy it for me as a present for 'Be Kind To Normans" Day...or I'll confiscate more mead n' randy goats from you.
                              Meanwhile,I'll get the "Boss" over here to look up more on this Howard Kelly guy.

                              Thanks for the info,Robert.
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