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  • Locations

    Nemo reminded me of something I wanted to start up on the locations of the crimes.

    First of all, not being the best qualified to discuss the area below Commercial Road...extending to the river....I am hoping someone else could tell me the following...or a whole bunch of you could pitch in with information as to :

    1. How far away was the Berner Street or Mitre Square murder from the docks or the prostitutes "beat" that frequented and serviced the docks ?

    As soon as someone comes through for me, I'll take it one step further, but I am depending on someone here to let me know how far away these docks are from Stride's murder ( as an example ).

    One reason I am interested is because if the goal of the Ripper are such...as most of us seem to concur with....that he (or they) prioritized his crimes, first murdering and then mutilating....then I have a question.

    If in fact this is so, and I don't see it being an issue, then would it not be easier for him to conduct mutilations in areas where people were less prevalent, such as the waterfront ...if mutilation was the primary goal....or were the mutilations primarily for the attention they would draw?

    I'm only guessing that these waterfronts or docks would be less inhabitated...and so for now,I'll shut up and wait for the cavalry to come in with the info I need.

    Thanks.
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  • #2
    Hi How,

    The nearest docks would be about 10 minutes walk from Berner Street and probably about 15 minutes from Mitre Square. Those are maximum times and it could probably be done a bit quicker.

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    • #3
      Thanks a million for this Rob.

      The choice of the docks & the river's edge wasn't because there weren't other locations that may have been advantageous to the Ripper for full on mutilations....but if as Rob Clack states, that the docks were just as far away from either victim's location as they were from each other and probably had prostitutes in those areas with places nearby affording superior cover or concealment....then I'd like to ask you, Forums member, what you think was going on in his mind in regard to his choice of the locations he ultimately chose as opposed to not choosing places which may have been advantageous and which also had prostitutes?

      In other words, why didn't he go to the River or the docks? With less inhabitants ( and correct me if I am in error, by all means ) and more risk....is this possibly a sign that the Ripper had attention-seeking aims?

      Lets chat this up.

      Again,thank you very much for the exact sort of tool I was looking for Rob.
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      • #4
        How,

        It must be remembered that the docks were actually seperated from the surronding area by a substantial wall, and had police seconnded to them. I refer you to Sadlers attempt to reboard his ship only to be denied by the Police there.

        Likewise the Royal Mint also had Police officers securing their premises (for obvious reasons)

        Infact, Id say that the Police presence in that area would have been the highest, on a continual level, than any other in London. After all, that area was Londons lifeline to the rest of the UK, Europe and the Empire.

        Monty

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        • #5
          Montagu:

          Thanks pal and coincidentally, I reread that section on Sadler's fun evening the other night with Nina in Mr. Tully's book on James Kelly, because I was trying to find something for Roy Corduroy..... I am aware that for some reason he was not allowed past the guards and then got into it with the ruffians.

          So...with what you said in mind....was there an area near the docks or south of Commercial Road which prostitutes frequented or perhaps another area in that general vicinity away from neighborhoods....which is what I should have stuck with in the first place,Neil...?
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          • #6
            How,

            Sadler wasnt allowed into the docks cos he was drunk & disorderly.

            St George in the East area was that area, not that there was a specific one. The streets are smaller and more 'compact' than north of Commercial Road. More warehouses and yards. The railway ran along that area also. So there were archways to be utilised also.

            Then of course theres the green velvet piece...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by How Brown View Post
              ...if mutilation was the primary goal....or were the mutilations primarily for the attention they would draw?

              Hi Howard

              This is a major point in the case I think

              If the Ripper was intent on mutilation to satisfy his own needs and perversions only, I think he would have chosen different locations away from prying eyes

              I think it was forefront in his mind to create a display of horror within the community that he wished to affect

              Speed was of the essence and it seems to me that the Ripper was confident in his knife skills and savagery

              I agree with Howard on a previous post that even the Kelly killing wouldn't have taken more than a few minutes - perhaps half an hour to an hour

              I don't think the docks come into it really - prostitutes may frequent the streets and pubs surrounding the docks - and I think the Ten Bells and others were close enough to the docks to see their fair share of sailors

              The docks would be relatively deserted at night in my opinion

              Arson often goes hand in hand with murder so I often wonder if the Ripper had anything to do with setting a fire on the docks - an act of High Treason and dubject to the death penalty at the time (and still today I think) - and in his excited state went on to kill Polly later that evening

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              • #8
                Further utilization of Rob's map:




                Red w/ Gold Outline (left-to-right):
                'Billingsgate'
                'The Wellclose'
                'Bluegate Fields'

                'Bluegate Fields', which – centered more-or-less on Dellow Street – straddled the parishes of St. George in the East & St. Paul Shadwell, was a notorious 'sailor's paradise'.

                My guess is that Wellclose Square was also a vibrant sailor's haven; and that Billingsgate Fish Market was indeed a magnet for those women seeking the 'custom' of market porters and the like.

                And let's not forget the area immediately outside the Tower. Surely the more ambitious and entrepreneurial soldier's 'girls' would have congregated in that vicinity, rather than waiting somewhere else for 'soldier-custom' to come to them.

                But if you're looking for dark seclusion, overshadowed by five-storey wharves and warehouses, Howard, then look no further than Wapping High Street, Parish of St. John of Wapping; and Wapping Wall, Parish of St. Paul Shadwell. I doubt that either of those thoroughfares were prostitute hot-spots, but the settings would have fit your 'scenario' to perfection.

                We must remember, however, that soldier's, sailor's, docker's and porter's 'girls' were probably for-the-most-part younger, more ambitious and more inclined toward ulterior motives (e.g. thievery), than were the sort of vagrant 'wrecks' (excepting Kelly) on whom the 'Ripper' preyed.

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