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  • Annie Chapman

    Thread for discussion and background on this victim...
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  • #2
    Annie Chapman was described as sober by her friend Amelia Palmer. She liked rum but didn't take to drink too often. The post-mortem says there was no evidence to suggest she had had any strong drink.
    My personal opinion is that if a prostitute has no addiction, he or she may very well be potentially upstanding members of society if given a chance. (Shawn Keegan wanted to get "a good job".) I'm sure if we had 17 hour work days for a pittance, many of us would be considered unemployable too.

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    • #3
      How did he leave the scene?
      If the murderer left through the front there would have been a chance of him being spotted leaving the scene as there seemed to be a number of people passing the front of the building?
      Why didn't they see him? Was it just good luck?
      Another alternative is he left through a back gate, anyone know if there was a back gate? Or he climbed over the back fence.
      My feeling is that he left via a back gate or over the fence because he wasn't spotted and it would have been safer for him.
      The fence climbing raises a few issues for me one is he would possibly be heard clambering over and another his hands would have been bloody surely even the police wouldn't have missed bloody hand/foots prints on the fence?
      Another alternative is that he went into the house and stayed there but that's being mischievous.

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      • #4
        String:

        Considering that fingerprints wouldn't be a factor in 1888, he could very well have left via the back of the yard. Good point. Not to mention that every minute would see more people in the front of the building....

        You may well be right pal.
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        • #5
          Since no blood was found anywhere other than at the area in which Chapman was killed, it makes it doubtful that her killer hopped a back fence while making his exit. I think he walked straight out the door that he had come in from. And if Dr. Phillips was accurate about his pre-4:30am estimate time of Chapman's death, then the Ripper would not have had a whole lot to worry about in terms of an abundance of human traffic.

          I have always had a difficult time concluding that this guy murdered at dawn.

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          • #6
            Hi All

            I have always had the belief that the most likely escape for the Ripper was over the back fence.

            All the indications I have come across suggest that the rear fence could have been stepped over quite easily with no need for climbing/clambering.

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            • #7
              Fair point Joe...

              Great to see you posting,Nemo !!
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              • #8
                Hi Howard - thanks for the welcome (I have it confirmed that the Black Pearl is a modern invention by the way - I will dedicate a thread to it)

                It has always intrigued me why there was no facial mutilation on Annie - the Ripper apparently had time to carry out the task

                I do not hold to the belief that facial mutilation indicates familiarity with the victim

                In Eddowes' case I believe he was attempting to create an horrific countenance for the finder(s) of the body to behold - slicing the face off from nose to lip (N.B. leaving the eyes intact)

                So why no facial injuries on Annie? Escalation?

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                • #9
                  Hi Howard - thanks for the welcome (I have it confirmed that the Black Pearl is a modern invention by the way - I will dedicate a thread to it)-NEMO

                  Looking forward to it,amigo !!
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nemo View Post
                    Hi All

                    I have always had the belief that the most likely escape for the Ripper was over the back fence.

                    All the indications I have come across suggest that the rear fence could have been stepped over quite easily with no need for climbing/clambering.
                    Are there any photographs or even sketches of the rear of the yard?
                    It would be interesting to see just how high the fence was. If it was very low then there would have been a possibility he could have been seen, although he wasn't.

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                    • #11
                      Hi String

                      Having reviewed the evidence, my stating "could have been stepped over easily" is probably an exaggeration

                      The fence appears to be approx. 4-5ft high though there is a back gate and the cross members are on the inside. To scale the fence would be very easy and it could probably be "leapt" over with little trouble.

                      One of the best views of the yard is in the following clip...

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjIUQqrkJdU

                      Regards

                      Nemo

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                      • #12
                        One thing for sure, the Ripper made an undetectable escape regardless if he went through the front door or hurdled over a fence.

                        To me, it seems very tempting to just go straight through the front door and quickly down the street and out of the neighborhood. Bing-Bing-Bing. Fast and efficient.

                        But hopping a back yard fence and landing on somebody else's property in the dark, and then trying to figure out how to get yourself onto the street starting from a different back yard setting? I don't know about that. But hey, if that is how he truly did it, then hats off to him. Hurdling a fence with one hand while the other hand grips the briefcase or container that was used to haul away the confiscated body parts? Or do you just chuck the briefcase over the fence first, then climb over it?

                        I just don't think it happened that way. But if it did, it really turned out well for him.

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                        • #13
                          Sometime before our recent time out, off line, whatever it should be called, I think How suggested reintroducing old threads that could speak to some new investigations of suspects and such.

                          So I am bringing up this thread on Annie Chapman. Not sure what the first two posts mean, but most of the posts are about how Jack got out of the backyard after he killed Annie. This is something I always think about in relation to any suspect because I think the Hanbury St. backyard was the most dangerous spot out of the C-5. Millers Court was bad but he might have been able to discourage anyone who knocked on the door until he could exit safely. In the backyard he could have been caught literally red handed, like removing intestines from abdomen.

                          I figure Jack either had a connexion to that backyard, in that he could explain himself if discovered, or he was a complete stranger to that address and he had a plan of escape. Or perhaps he was drunk, drugged or insane enough not to care.

                          As with most of the Ripper cases writers have written many things. There was an opening in the back of the fence. There was no opening. Jack could or did jump over the fence. He went back the way he came...

                          If he was a stranger, how did he ascertain if someone was in the privy who could interrupt him? Wasn't he at disadvantage hunkered down in the corner by the steps and fence? Would he have tried to talk his way out of it? Drunk woman, call a policeman? (Difficult if he had a uterus in his hand.) Did he plan to knife anyone who interrupted him?

                          The chance of being interrupted was extreme. People getting ready for work and needing the privy. The various businesses in the building perhaps just setting up for business. There were windows just above where the murder took place. Jack had no way to control traffic in the neighboring yard where Cadosh went to use the privy.

                          So I figure a viable suspect had to be of a type that could have gotten out of that backyard, talking his way out if necessary. He wouldn't likely be too extreme in any way such as foreign looking or speaking (Kosminski or Fiegenbaum), odd looking (Tumblety), affluent looking (Mr. A. or Druitt nicely dressed), etc. He might have been someone well known to those who lived there, who would not have been initially suspected.

                          Hanbury St. can possibly tell us a lot and help us narrow down suspects.
                          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                          • #14
                            insane

                            Hello Anna. Good observations. Insane works well for me.

                            1. The foreign looking man talked LOUDLY to Annie.

                            2. It was AFTER sunup.

                            3. He stole her worthless rings.

                            4. He went through her pocket and laid out her belongings and arranged them.

                            Incidentally, were there any OTHER foreign looking men?

                            Cheers.
                            LC

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                            • #15
                              LC:

                              Probably a minor point but...

                              When we say wrenched off her finger, we usually take that to mean the killer wrenched them off. He may well have.
                              It occurs to me that she could have wrenched them off herself in an attempt to thwart any further unpleasantries. I recall a co-worker being in a bit of difficulty years ago and he wrenched off his wedding ring ( He cut himself behind the ring on his ring finger and panicked...leaving abrasions on the finger where the ring had been). The killer probably wrenched them off, however.
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