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Proposed modification to Lechmere's route to work

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    Did he feel vulnerable traversing those streets for the first time? Or did a sense of anonymity embolden him?
    I would think after a few weeks of traversing those streets daily, and also having lived in the immediate area for a long time, he would have got to know them well in short order.
    the move also entailed leaving one of his children at his moms correct? would stress me out. and also be another reason to visit his mom alot.

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    good point. was the move, or stress of the move the trigger perhaps?
    Did he feel vulnerable traversing those streets for the first time? Or did a sense of anonymity embolden him?

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark J D View Post
    I think I get the cryptic message. :-)

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    CAL (or Crossmere if you prefer) lived for 30 years or so in SGE and presumably walked to work along a route that didn’t take him through Spitalfields. Then in June, 1888 he moved to Mile End and had to work out a new route, one that logically had to take him through Spitalfields - and, lo and behold, within a few weeks Spitalfields unfortunates started dropping like flies.
    good point. was the move, or stress of the move the trigger perhaps?

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  • Mark J D
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    I’m not sure why that would preclude CAL from walking in through the Liverpool Street gate.
    :-)

    M. stage door.jpg

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

    The arches down there were tunnels all the way across under the railway lines, with rails laid for wagons. I've tended to assume that stuff being delivered by road to Broad Street for transport out by rail went in that way. Again, not our carman's point of arrival at 4am...

    M.
    I’m not sure why that would preclude CAL from walking in through the Liverpool Street gate.

    https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...-station/page3

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  • Mark J D
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    In the top photo the carts appear to be going in. There was also a barrier at that entrance. I’ll see if I can find a photo of it.
    The arches down there were tunnels all the way across under the railway lines, with rails laid for wagons. I've tended to assume that stuff being delivered by road to Broad Street for transport out by rail went in that way. Again, not our carman's point of arrival at 4am...

    M.

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

    With all due, I only see a cart going out -- which to me makes sense. What would be the point of using the Eldon Street barrier/weighbridge/ticketing archway for carts coming back empty, when all the returning carmen have to do is go north to park up and take the horses to the stables?

    M.
    In the top photo the carts appear to be going in. There was also a barrier at that entrance. I’ll see if I can find a photo of it.

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  • Mark J D
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    The Liverpool Street entrance certainly had carts going in and out...
    I've seen a photo of those tunnels all up the side, I think there are about 13 of them.

    M.

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Is it a nose bag?

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    The Liverpool Street entrance certainly had carts going in and out and there’s one below parked up with its horse enjoying a nose bag. And you know what happens when you put food into one end of a horse.

    Attached Files

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  • Mark J D
    replied
    Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    I have highlighted a map and the photo. Red is the alignment in Gary's photo - the arches gave access to the underground goods storage facility. The yellow blob is the Eldon Street main entrance. The blueish line is the western perimeter which had several gates.
    The reason I keep banging on about entrances up the long western edge is that with there being no fewer than three bridges across the tracks a little to the north, I can't easily see LVP management wanting the narrow thoroughfare that is Liverpool Street used by hundreds of grubby carmen and other manual workers starting and ending various shifts when the limited space is also used by the paying public arriving and departing in carriages, passengers on foot, restaurant diners, hotel guests, and God knows who else using the other buildings and businesses in the street. I just don't find it believable. Indeed, even in our less socially stratified early 2000s, I worked in a logistics job in a place where public & management, white-collar and blue collar all had their completely separate entrances.

    The entrance in Eldon Street seems to me to have been a barrier/weighbridge/ticketing type of thing used when loaded carts went out. I bet even managing that traffic flow was a strain.

    Anyone have any actual info about whether there were gates in the sides of the tunnels at the western ends of the two middle bridges?

    M.

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  • Edward Stow
    replied
    I have highlighted a map and the photo.
    Red is the alignment in Gary's photo - the arches gave access to the underground goods storage facility.
    The yellow blob is the Eldon Street main entrance.
    The blueish line is the western perimeter which had several gates.

    Attached Files

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    The public entrance was by those buses.
    There were two sets of platforms - one above the other - I seem to recall - with lifts to raise goods up and down to the yards far below.
    the goods entrance address was around the corner to the left. I think.
    So who might this sign facing Liverpool Street have been intended for?



    Attached Files

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  • Christer Holmgren
    replied
    Originally posted by Caroline Brown View Post

    But that makes no logical sense, Christer. He had no need to run. He could have walked briskly on to work, leaving RP to notice the woman and go for help. How would Lechmere have been 'chased down and captured', given that RP didn't realise the woman had been violently attacked and killed, even when his attention was actively drawn to the body?

    The better argument might be that Lechmere got off on the thrill of staying put and fooling people, with the bloody knife still on his person, and forfeiting a potentially strong alibi was worth it.

    If he was that worried about RP leaving the woman immediately to chase and catch him, he was the one with the sharp knife! Which presumably he'd have used at the scene if RP had seen the extent of the injuries and become suspicious.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    First of all, I do not predispose that he must have run from the site if he chose to leave it. Since I reason that he would have been composed enough to bluff Paul, he could of course be composed enough to walk - if he chose that solution. What is important to remember here is that we have a choice.

    Your proposition is that if he had left the scene, he would not have had to further engage in the errand anymore. No inquest, no questions, no nothing. With any luck, Paul would not even have been aware of his presence at the site, and he would stay undetected altogether. It all depends on unknown variables which is of vital importance to keep in mind.

    There are a few problems with your proposition, however.

    The first problem has already been mentioned on the thread - a very short time after he left, Robert Paul would arrive at the site, and he could in an equally short time have noticed that the woman on the pavement was murdered. If Lechmere had not been able to put a long enough distance between himself and the body, he was faced with the risk that Paul cried "Murder" and - as has so many times been pointed out - it could be that a PC (or somebody else) was close by, stopping Lechmere in his stride. Running OR walking.

    The second problem is that the risk mentioned above would boil down to Lechmere having handed over the initiative to Paul, and if we know something about psychopathic serial killers (that is to say nine out of ten of the total amount of serial killers), then that is that they cherish the element of control. And the only way to fully control the situation was for Lechmere to steer clear of the risk mentioned above by taking charge of the scene, Paul included.

    A final point that needs to be made is that there are always options when we look at Lechmere and what he did. He could have taken Old Montague Street and he could have taken Hanbury Street. He could have spoken to Mizen and he could have avoided to speak to him. He could have gone to the inquest and he could have stayed away from it.
    The same applies here: he could leave the body and try to get away - and he could stay put and bluff it out.
    It is anybody´s choice how to view this issue, but it is also a fact that regardless of whether you think that he would have run, that is just your choice. And it does in no way preclude that I may be right instead of you! The possibility is there, and it cannot be weighed as such since we do not know the various volumes, if you like, of the parameters involved.
    So it is not as if you or I can say that our respective solutions are more or less likely than the opposing solution. In that respect, it is a waste of time and nothing else to say that Lechmere would have left the body. It would only be interesting if it could be proven to be a given thing or if we were able to weigh up the respective likelihoods of the two suggestions. And it can´t and we are not.

    As a consequence of this, your misgivings do not affect the value of the Lechmere theory, much in the same manner as the suggestion that nobody will kill fifteen minutes before they are due at work has no impact on that value.

    And to be fair, I think those two matters are the most popular points those who challenge the theory have come up with so far.

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