Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

[Howard Brown]

A kupla two three things to mention here.....

One....the reason why there are no Carrie Brown & Co. threads on the site is because most of them were filled with comments I made suggesting, at times, overtly, that there may have been a concerted effort to frame Ali for the murder and at times, very overtly, that no one but the Danish Farmhand was the killer. Both of these positions, I can safely say and I'm happy that they are, put on hold.

I converted the 462 threads which were provided on the Forums into PDF's. None of them are lost. None of the attachments and stories, comments, and additional items are lost. I have them and have them copied onto reliable data storage formats( hard drives, flash drives, and DVD).

The problem I faced after copying these threads was reposting them into PDF format on the site. In the past, even back in 2020, we had VBulletin software which would allow more than 2.0 Mb uploads. Now, however, the current VBulletin software will only handle 2.0 uploads. As a result, and after numerous maneuvers on my part to get the PDF's on the site....I can't get it to work. There is a VBulletin update which may allow larger PDF's, but I need to check that out and will do so in the near future

Since I will no longer own the site in around 2 months, I will keep any and all of my Carrie Brown & Co. material on this forum and not spread it into other sections.

[Howard Brown]

For those interested in Brownian studies.....here's a few links to assist in your research ( aside from the larger, more well known sources such as Ancestry, Newspapers.Com, Newspaper Archives, British Newspaper Archive, GenealogyBank, Old Fulton, etc....)

New York State Historic Newspapers

https://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/

Chronicling America

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/

New York Public Library

https://www.nypl.org/

Want to make a PDF from a page here or anywhere ? And for free ?
Look no further :

https://webpagetopdf.com/

Create your own PDF ( I use it )

https://www.sejda.com/pdf-editor

Links to Carrie Brown research sites:

NY On Trial

https://www.newyorkontrial.com/

Carrie Brown Net You Tube Channel

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpS5IJw_51kxLn132e2wwGg/videos

Carrie Brown.Net

https://carriebrown.net/

Carrir Brown File ( Facebook)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/431959994891380/?multi_permalinks=593793865374658&notif_id=1632477608030413&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif

[Howard Brown]

Remember.......

If you have questions or ideas on how to improve this section of this site, please post them here.

No one owns or rules or controls or is the final say when it comes to this subject.

[Howard Brown]

Eerily, this February 18, 1889 dime novel envisioned Jack the Ripper coming to America, and to New York,....and involving Inspector Byrnes.

[Michael Banks]

I realise that any thoughts of Ali being framed have been shelved How but I was wondering about the possibility however remote. We know of the suggestion that the Press tampered with the blood but one other thing has me scratching my chin a little so I’d be glad to hear your thoughts. It’s the fact that Det Sgt Frink didn’t take the fingernail scrapings, Ali’s sock and a bloodstain from his shoe until 3 days after the murder which Ali being taking in on the same day that the body was discovered. I wonder why the delay? There’s probably an innocent explanation of course but it seems a little strange to me?

[Howard Brown]

I realise that any thoughts of Ali being framed have been shelved How but I was wondering about the possibility however remote. We know of the suggestion that the Press tampered with the blood but one other thing has me scratching my chin a little so I’d be glad to hear your thoughts. It’s the fact that Det Sgt Frink didn’t take the fingernail scrapings, Ali’s sock and a bloodstain from his shoe until 3 days after the murder which Ali being taking in on the same day that the body was discovered. I wonder why the delay? There’s probably an innocent explanation of course but it seems a little strange to me?
-Mike Banks-

Mike....the concept of the police framing Ali did seem to have a basis...and may still to others. Regardless of whether one was attempted or evidence manufactured by the cops, the salient point is that it didn't result in him receiving the sentence that the D.A.'s office was seeking. In sports terms, it was a tie score with them not being able to convict him for first degree murder....their aim from the outset and the aim of all attorneys working for the prosecution cases that scream for the death penalty.. I don't think that the police would even know that the nails would be crucial to obtaining a conviction. It may have been an act to show that blood was ( obviously) under his nails. I'm surprised they didn't find a tuna fish hoagie under his nails.

As to why Frink didn't or rather, his superiors, didn't take the material from his nails until three days later may not be as sinister as people once thought or think today.

My 'guess' is that this sort of thing was rarely attempted by the prosecution to provide evidence to be used in their presentation in court and possibly being the first time it was ever done . In short, it was a novel idea.

What convinced Byrnes & Co to formally charge him for the murder, in my opinion, had less to do with the nail evidence, as you and I both know that Formad & Flint didn't become involved until two months later with their examination of the contents under his nails. What I think, IMHO, is that something else was the basis of the formal charge.

It may have been Nellie English informing the police of her adventures with Ali...schlepping around from room to room....or the experience of the Mannixes, shortly before the murder, coming to the attention of the police....plus his non-stop prevarication, his wild goose chase to Brooklyn...his lies about just about everything. Even the opening statement by Wellman with its curious remark that Ali had experience in the military, working in the medical/surgeon area, may have come from Ali via an interpreter. Ali chose the worst person imaginable to make such manifestly false claims and have them come to his attention: Inspector Byrnes.

[Michael Banks]

Do we know if the windows were covered in room 31?

[Howard Brown]

Do we know if the windows were covered in room 31?
-Mike Banks-

Both Capt. O'Connor and Officer Crowley mention at the Coroner's Inquest that the room was well lit. No mention of shades on the windows.

From the New York Press ( I think it was from the 25th or 26th of April edition)



From the New York Evening World ( from the 25th of April)

[Michael Banks]

Thanks How. I was wondering how dark the room might have been if Ali had entered it after she had been murdered? If he’d just seen the figure on the bed he might have got close and touched her (maybe trying to wake her up) before feeling the blood and realising that she was dead? I wonder how much light would have come in through the windows there at night as I’m guessing that street lighting wouldn’t have been that great in that area? Not much perhaps? I’m also guessing that in a dump like that the corridors wouldn’t have cast much light into the room either?

So what do we have in terms of evidence against the above? I can’t immediately think of anything that categorically dismissed the suggestion. Is it particularly unlikely? It would have been understandable for Frenchy to have denied ever being in the room and sticking to the story as who would have believed the alternative? Even to the extent of trying to claim that he was in another room.

Combined with the descriptions of Kniclo and Glenmore Man I’d say that it’s possible at least.

[Howard Brown]

Thanks How. I was wondering how dark the room might have been if Ali had entered it after she had been murdered? If he’d just seen the figure on the bed he might have got close and touched her (maybe trying to wake her up) before feeling the blood and realising that she was dead? I wonder how much light would have come in through the windows there at night as I’m guessing that street lighting wouldn’t have been that great in that area? Not much perhaps? I’m also guessing that in a dump like that the corridors wouldn’t have cast much light into the room either?

So what do we have in terms of evidence against the above? I can’t immediately think of anything that categorically dismissed the suggestion. Is it particularly unlikely? It would have been understandable for Frenchy to have denied ever being in the room and sticking to the story as who would have believed the alternative? Even to the extent of trying to claim that he was in another room.

Combined with the descriptions of Kniclo and Glenmore Man I’d say that it’s possible at least.

-Mike Banks-








I'm pretty sure there was cloud cover that night in the vicinity. I have the report somewhere on a drive.
The available ambient light was below normal that night if there was still cloud cover around 11 PM.
Street lights wouldn't provide much illumination for the fourth or fifth floor. Candles were given to boarders after
they signed in. Brown & C. Kniclo received a 'green candle', meaning a brand new one.

In this possible scenario, after C. Kniclo murdered her, he may have extinguished the candle in Room 31. I know I would have, but that's just me. If afterwards, Ali entered the room knowing C. Kniclo had left, he'd be confronted with diminished ambient light and would either light the candle in the room or move about dependent on the ambient light coming in through the window(s). If he hadn't lit the candle, he may have not been aware of her being mutilated when he came in, if in addition to diminished ambient light, there were no lit candles in the hallway.

I imagine Ali would have been stunned to discover her being dead and not alive as he, in this possible scenario, came over for some sex. It might also explain why he came down a few hours after the murder and not immediately. The recent affair with Mrs. Mannix, the night with Nellie English, and possibly other similar 'break and take' maneuvers assure me that his track record for this sort of thing were known and/or would be recalled as soon as Brown was discovered and the police learned who was in the room across the hall.

Ali probably went through an excruciating few hours trying to figure out what to do. Which might explain why he didn't run away ( like I would have done if I murdered her) instead lounging around in front of a liquor store because in his mind, he hadn't done anything.
There's no real proof he robbed Brown ( Her pockets were turned inside out, but then C. Kniclo might have done this himself). That his so-called confession to the interpreter finds him declaring he only went in the room after the murder to burgle the room does not mean he actually burgled it. Intent to rob is one thing, actually doing it, another. Hence, in his mind, he hadn't done 'anything'.

I don't recall whether candle holders were present on the fifth floor, Mike....but I will take a look later on.

[Michael Banks]

I don’t think that any of this is far fetched How. I did wonder why Kniclo would have left with the key but hadn't locked the door but why would he have? Who would have entered the room except a member of staff in the morning who would have had a pass key anyway (as Fitzgerald did.) Kniclo probably didn’t even realise that he still had the key in a coat pocket as he’d have wanted to get out of there quickly. Is it safe to say that this guy would not have been entirely in his right mind? The kind of disturbed person that would try and get a hotel room with no money?

[Howard Brown]

I don’t think that any of this is far fetched How. I did wonder why Kniclo would have left with the key but hadn't locked the door but why would he have? Who would have entered the room except a member of staff in the morning who would have had a pass key anyway (as Fitzgerald did.) Kniclo probably didn’t even realise that he still had the key in a coat pocket as he’d have wanted to get out of there quickly. Is it safe to say that this guy would not have been entirely in his right mind? The kind of disturbed person that would try and get a hotel room with no money?
-Mike Banks-

Can't argue with any of that, boss. He certainly exhibited savage behavior on Brown's body....with the post-mortem mutilation being absolutely unnecessary. I'm sure the police realized this as well and may have been a factor in Charles Edward Russell's theory that the Ripper killed Brown, which does make sense to me, if Ali and Kniclo were not two known men who had contact with her in one form or another prior to her murder....... What additional pain and suffering can you apply to a corpse that they'll actually feel? All the post-mortem mutilation was, as it is to every sick sumbitch who does this to women, was some sort of sexual gratification.

That he claimed he was out of cash when he went to the Glenmore was a lie. You can't get to N.J. from N.Y. without having to pay the ferry man and ticket collector on the train. He had money .but didn't want to use it for the clean up, which is basically what he wanted if in fact he's the Dane. If he were a local New Yorker, he'd go to his own place. If he were a local man, he'd know other means of getting a little water on those bloody hands and specks of blood on his mug. If he's the farmhand, he's got a problem. Getting cleaned up like a tourist would. No friends in the area ; No places to crash, like a friend's house, until he got cleaned up.


Mike:

This is, if you were not familiar with its name, a mortise lock...I'll get back to this in the future. I only want to put a jpeg of it in order to not have to go fetch it later

[Michael Banks]

Prof Dekle says that the Glenmore Hotel was close by?

“The Glenmore Hotel was located on Chatham Square, a five-minute walk on a straight line from the East River Hotel.”

[Michael Banks]

A couple of questions How….

On the letter from Calcutta about the seaman that allegedly threw himself overboard. I realise that this story could probably be put in the same category as Matters Dr Stanley story but has anyone looked into it further? Was this steamer there on the day in question and if it was did anyone actually report a crew member missing?

Then there’s Prof Dekle’s explanation of what would have needed to have happened if there had been anything untoward involving the fingernail scrapings. He says:

“If Flint and Formad were not parties to the deception, it must be true that blood from Carrie Brown’s viscera had to be mixed with ten separate fingernail scrapings. If blood from Carrie Brown’s viscera was fraudulently mixed with fingernail scrapings, some officer had to dirty his fingernails and then dip his hands into the still-wet viscera of Carrie Brown.”

Hypothetically of course couldn’t it have been possible that 10 small pieces of dried blood could have been taken from Brown’s blood and just placed in envelopes and claimed to have been taken from beneath Ali’s fingernails?

[Howard Brown]

MIke:

Actually its around a 3 minute walk from Chatham Square to the ERH