Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

[Howard Brown]

I think that we would be hard pressed to find any murder suspect who made a worse job of appearing innocent.
-Mike Banks-

..which is why the early optimism of the defense team, pre-Coroner Inquest, ( Friend and House, in particular) is almost laughable and a point that I differ from Professor Dekle on.
He was a pathological liar, pure and simple.
My uncle was on a jury back in the 1960's. A man was on trial for forcible rape. The victimized woman's sister was on the stand and through tears made numerous remarks concerning the defendant, who then stood up and stated, "You best shut up or I'll do you like that other bitch !".....according to my Uncle Frank.

That's what comes to mind when I think of Ali as a defendant in a murder trial.


************************************************** ************************************************** *************************************


How, was he eliminated purely on the distance between Rye (where he was kicked out by his wife) to the ERH? Do we know what time she kicked him out? Is it impossible that he could have gotten to the ERH in time?
-Mike Banks-

He was arrested out in Jamaica, L.I. One report states he was arrested because he matched the C. Kniclo character and another mentioned someone noticing the handkerchiefs when he was pulling a ticket out of his pocket. I am not sure and don't believe Byrnes did go investigate. I can't locate ( still looking) an article placing Holland with NYPD in Manhattan on Mulberry Street. It certainly doesn't exclude the possibility someone from Mulberry Street went out to investigate.

For some reason, the matter of him possibly being C. Kniclo was dropped. His family scoffed at the notion he had anything to do with Brown's murder....which, in itself, is not definite proof of innocence. It had to do with something else, I feel, Mike....maybe we'll find it.

The point I was trying to make regarding the distance was why did he have to travel to that part of the Lower East Side ( Rye is an upper middle class neighborhood and a suburban community of the Big Apple today) ? This would make me wonder as a detective why did he travel so far away ( which he admitted to) to that part of time which is like me or you having fights with family members and travelling to a neighborhood where the least I'd worry about is a confrontation with a middle class woman. The L.E.S. was a rough patch....and I'm pretty sure he didn't dress down when he left his once-happy home to go the area. Pretty bad choice of locations.

The blood on the hankies, according to Holland, came about from an assault on Staten Island ( Brooklyn Citizen. May 2nd). This guy was all over the map.


If the New England Hotel was closed ( since April 18), the mere fact that it was something like a 10 minute walk from the East River Hotel would make him suspicious factoring in the bloody hankies. This lie was also a reason to suspect him.

Bottom line, and in my opinion, whatever got him off the hook was conclusive and will most likely but not definitively, remain unknown to us 130 years later.

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Sorry for not replying to your question of when Mrs. Holland gave the bum's rush to Charles.

It's quite possible it was earlier in the day of the 23rd ( remember how long it would take to get to the Lower East Side), where he might have continued his 'Lost Weekend' up until he ran out of cash. He stated he was without funds, but if so, how did he get back home ? He sure as hell didn't walk. Maybe his claim of being penniless ( one such report was in the NY Evening World ) and left to walking the streets meant he only had money to return to Rye but not to get a room and get back to Rye. I'll look into it, amigo.

[Michael Banks]

Mike:

Sorry for not replying to your question of when Mrs. Holland gave the bum's rush to Charles.

It's quite possible it was earlier in the day of the 23rd ( remember how long it would take to get to the Lower East Side), where he might have continued his 'Lost Weekend' up until he ran out of cash. He stated he was without funds, but if so, how did he get back home ? He sure as hell didn't walk. Maybe his claim of being penniless ( one such report was in the NY Evening World ) and left to walking the streets meant he only had money to return to Rye but not to get a room and get back to Rye. I'll look into it, amigo.

Thanks How, as you say we’ll probably never know why he was exonerated but exonerate him they did. It must have been conclusive as they didn’t bother taking him to stand in front of Mary Miniter, let alone Kelly at the Glenmore.

It always surprises me reading about various murder cases how often people who turn out to have been completely innocent show up with blood on them? There are some unlucky guys out there.

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Random question:

Doesn't it seem as if the primary focus of this case...almost from the outset on April 24th...was on pressuring Byrnes to find the killer ( actually taunting him in some instances) rather than finding the killer ? To me, at least, it seems as if a little less interest was placed on finding the killer than it was on busting Byrnes' chops.

Of course, Warren had his trials and tribulations with the London press...which were in major part due to the Trafalgar Square riot a year earlier.....but overall, to me, it seems the police in general in the Ripper case were usually the recipients of the brunt of criticism in that murder series. In the Brown murder, a negligible amount of criticism was aimed at officers other than Byrnes.

And Byrnes was a busy man in April-May of 1891....resolving a number of cases ( I went through them earlier today).....so the Ali case, while indeed a front burner murder he felt pressure to solve, was a primary focus, it was far from the only one.

[Michael Banks]

Mike:

Random question:

Doesn't it seem as if the primary focus of this case...almost from the outset on April 24th...was on pressuring Byrnes to find the killer ( actually taunting him in some instances) rather than finding the killer ? To me, at least, it seems as if a little less interest was placed on finding the killer than it was on busting Byrnes' chops.

Of course, Warren had his trials and tribulations with the London press...which were in major part due to the Trafalgar Square riot a year earlier.....but overall, to me, it seems the police in general in the Ripper case were usually the recipients of the brunt of criticism in that murder series. In the Brown murder, a negligible amount of criticism was aimed at officers other than Byrnes.

And Byrnes was a busy man in April-May of 1891....resolving a number of cases ( I went through them earlier today).....so the Ali case, while indeed a front burner murder he felt pressure to solve, was a primary focus, it was far from the only one.

It looks like they had long memories. I just had a quick look in Dekle and he says that as far back October ‘88 Byrnes had made comments on how he’d have handled the case:

“But pshaw! what’s the use of talking; the murderer should have been caught long ago.”

Then with the Press talking of Byrnes saying that he’d have caught the ripper if he’d been in NY. Sounds like he had a target on his back and the Press were cocked and loaded?

[Howard Brown]

Capt. McCloskey can also be found as well as Judge Smyth ( who called the Met Police blockheads) making disparaging remarks back in 1888.....I'll post a PDF in the near future, Mike.

You aware that Byrnes is quoted as saying he'd use prostitutes, more or less, like bait to apprehend the Ripper if he came to New York. If one got killed, at least they'd have the killer...?

Rougher spoken and less sensitive times back then

It sort of jibes with what I suggested a little earlier.....that the press was a little less concerned with the killer's potential next move than what Byrnes would or could do to catch Brown's murderer. I don't doubt that Byrnes gave conflicting statements to the press...but he may not have really cared what they printed.

In his time and on his turf, he had as much power as Warren did in London and had had a far greater amount of experience dealing with the press than Warren ever did or would.

Another thought, Mike.....I also get the impression that despite the Ripper having committed multiple murders....the Coles murder, whether a Ripper murder or not, was included in the WM file and at the time very much considered a Ripper murder by a lot of people.....that if the murderer of Brown was, in fact, the transplanted Ripper....few articles appear to bring this up...as in, is this the first of future New York murders ? I get the impression that it was treated, for the most part, like a one off murder before it was shown to be a one off murder.

How about you ?

[Michael Banks]

Capt. McCloskey can also be found as well as Judge Smyth ( who called the Met Police blockheads) making disparaging remarks back in 1888.....I'll post a PDF in the near future, Mike.

You aware that Byrnes is quoted as saying he'd use prostitutes, more or less, like bait to apprehend the Ripper if he came to New York. If one got killed, at least they'd have the killer...?

Rougher spoken and less sensitive times back then

It sort of jibes with what I suggested a little earlier.....that the press was a little less concerned with the killer's potential next move than what Byrnes would or could do to catch Brown's murderer. I don't doubt that Byrnes gave conflicting statements to the press...but he may not have really cared what they printed.

In his time and on his turf, he had as much power as Warren did in London and had had a far greater amount of experience dealing with the press than Warren ever did or would.

Another thought, Mike.....I also get the impression that despite the Ripper having committed multiple murders....the Coles murder, whether a Ripper murder or not, was included in the WM file and at the time very much considered a Ripper murder by a lot of people.....that if the murderer of Brown was, in fact, the transplanted Ripper....few articles appear to bring this up...as in, is this the first of future New York murders ? I get the impression that it was treated, for the most part, like a one off murder before it was shown to be a one off murder.

How about you ?

Good point How. I’d have at least expected comments along those lines from the Press before Ali was charged. Why no “where will he strike next?” I’d have expected the Press to have revelled in a story with such ‘horror’ potential. Unless your guys were more honourable than our Press? And I’m guessing that they were all cut from the same cloth.

Were there any previous murders that they suggested as being linked? With Stride and Cole just having their throats cut I’m surprised that they didn’t latch onto any other throat-cuttings to try and fill a few hysteria fuelled columns?

[Howard Brown]

By the way, the NYPD was scathed in the press back in 1874 for their exuberant behavior in the Tompkins Square riots....also involving a mass of unemployed people and protesters.




4 days after the discovery of Brown's body......

New York Evening World
April 28, 1891
Page 1
**********

[Howard Brown]

Good point How. I’d have at least expected comments along those lines from the Press before Ali was charged. Why no “where will he strike next?” I’d have expected the Press to have reveled in a story with such ‘horror’ potential. Unless your guys were more honourable than our Press? And I’m guessing that they were all cut from the same cloth.
-Mike Banks-

Which, I feel, the Berbenich affidavit's content was a joke played on him. As Prof Bob, you, and I know, the instant anyone saw Brown's body, the Ripper came to mind. No need to embellish the crime scene in order to put that perception into effect. It was immediate.
I'm guessing most reporters, at least in NYC, were trying to out do the other in some form or fashion...lest they lose their job or get demoted to covering soirees out on Long Island.
I personally don't see too much of a difference between London and New York reporters...and certainly not the typesetters. Both London and NY papers had quite a few misspelled names ( Bachert comes to mind as does Miniter in the NY press).



Were there any previous murders that they suggested as being linked? With Stride and Cole just having their throats cut I’m surprised that they didn’t latch onto any other throat-cuttings to try and fill a few hysteria fueled columns?
-Mike Banks-


None other than the Ripper murders were compared to the Brown murder. Remember that Brown didn't have her throat cut, amigo...... Every murder involving post-mortem mutilation after the WM was compared to the Ripper. Even murders involving garroting, handguns, bludgeoning, and other different weapons ( scissors, hatpins, etc).

[Howard Brown]

For today.....a link to 'Taker's Mad', an audiobook created by Luke Jerod Kummer, a story which takes place in Gilded Age New York and is centered on the murder of Carrie Brown.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Takers-Ma...h8HtibclDW8RPk

[Howard Brown]

For Tuesday.....

A Face In The Crowd - Eli Commanis
PDF included

[Michael Banks]

Hello How, has there been any mention anywhere of Carrie Brown wearing spectacles?

Crowley from the trial:

“….on the window sill there was a pair of spectacles.”

[Howard Brown]

Yes, there was Mike....or at least, Brown being in possession of spectacles :

New York Evening World
April 24, 1891
****************

[Michael Banks]

Yes, there was Mike....or at least, Brown being in possession of spectacles :

New York Evening World
April 24, 1891
****************

Thanks How. He only mentions one pair at the trial but just down to memory I guess.

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

That's true, Crowley mentions one pair on the sill...but he wasn't asked at that point what she had in her muslin bag, was he ?