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Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

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  • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    Mike:

    That's true, Crowley mentions one pair on the sill...but he wasn't asked at that point what she had in her muslin bag, was he ?
    No mention of the bag.
    Regards

    Michael🔎


    " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

    Comment


    • How, do we have the photograph of Jenalli and Bozieb from The Herald? I can’t recall seeing it anywhere so I’m guessing that we don’t have it?
      Regards

      Michael🔎


      " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

      Comment


      • We sure do, Mike

        Attached Files

        Comment


        • Thanks How, I don’t know why I didn’t remember it.
          Regards

          Michael🔎


          " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

          Comment


          • Buddy...it's a massive case...easy to do.

            There were no lengthy coroner reports and definitely no murder trial transcripts in the history of the Whitechapel Murders. The Brown murder has them both and both are, as we know, extensive.


            .

            Comment


            • Jenalli and his Irish wife lived near this location in South Brooklyn....in a neighborhood named Red Hook...close to this intersection of Seabring Street and Columbia Street

              H. P. Lovecraft lived on the edge of Red Hook. His apartment was burglarized leaving him with virtually only the clothes on his back. It inspired him to write The Horror of Red Hook in 1925.




              Attached Files

              Comment


              • I’m wondering why someone hasn’t latched onto the fact that Richard Mansfield was present in court at the last day of the trial How. I’ve heard weaker points made against. ‘Suspect.’
                Regards

                Michael🔎


                " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                Comment


                • Mike:

                  Hush yo' mouth, sir ! Don't give anyone any ideas !

                  Comment


                  • How, do we know why there was a years gap between Robillard getting Damon’s affidavit and him applying to Odell for a pardon?
                    Regards

                    Michael🔎


                    " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                    Comment


                    • Mike:

                      Good question, Mike....my guess is that the delay had a bit to do with the January 12, 1898 assault on William Greef or possibly Green, in Matteawan. Ali nearly killed him.

                      Comment


                      • It does seem a little strange though because it seems that after the Greef incident in 1898 Governor Black turned down his petition for pardon. There then followed a period of good behaviour and he was sent to Dannemora in 1901. Then Robillard put a petition to Roosevelt (in Roosevelt’s last term whenever that was) which was rejected. So by the time that the affidavits were it must have been sometime in 1901 for him to be released a year later in April 1902. You could be right How but it seemed strange to me when that Greef incident occurred 3 years before he received the affidavits.

                        On another issue, I don’t know about you How, but I’m not impressed by Berbenich’s information. It’s difficult to see how any reporter or reporters would a) feel the need to make the crime scene look more horrific or ripper-like? And b) why would they have left planted blood where they couldn’t have failed to have realised that they could have been incriminating at innocent man? Even if Berbenich was being honest it sounds like he heard some reporter talking out of his you-know-where after a beer or several.
                        Regards

                        Michael🔎


                        " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                        Comment


                        • So by the time that the affidavits were it must have been sometime in 1901 for him to be released a year later in April 1902. You could be right How but it seemed strange to me when that Greef incident occurred 3 years before he received the affidavits.

                          Indeed it did, Mike. We read newspaper reports of Damon coming forward in June of 1901...then a gap of six months before Governor Odell gave those interested in obtaining a pardon for Ali a hearing on December 3rd....and finally, the commutation of Ali's sentence was issued on April 16th, 1902.....with Ali setting sail for France exactly 11 years after the day Brown entered the hotel on April 23rd, 1902.

                          On another issue, I don’t know about you How, but I’m not impressed by Berbenich’s information. It’s difficult to see how any reporter or reporters would a) feel the need to make the crime scene look more horrific or ripper-like? And b) why would they have left planted blood where they couldn’t have failed to have realised that they could have been incriminating at innocent man? Even if Berbenich was being honest it sounds like he heard some reporter talking out of his you-know-where after a beer or several

                          It does sound unlikely that anyone would have had a need to make the crime scene more gruesome. To me, at worst, it was an example of the terrible crime scene preservation undertaken by Coroner Schulze. All the nonsense about planting blood evidence.... actually, the police could have painted the walls of Room 33 ( Ali's room) with blood, but it doesn't explain the leukemic cells found under his nails. The blood planting theory is not only impossible to prove but it is, in reality, irrelevant to the evidence that actually, pardon the pun, nails Ali as being a bona fide suspect and not some harmless putz framed by the cops.

                          Comment


                          • I’ve just read Dekle’s explanation. They held the affidavits back until Roosevelt had left office as he’d stated that he wouldn’t accept another petition. They wanted to present it to the new Governor.

                            Yeah I just can’t see this planting of blood suggestion. As we’ve said before How, seeing this type of murder and comparing it as they did to the ripper murders the Police must have been aware of the possibility of the killer striking again, so what if he had done and had been caught? He might even have confessed to killing Brown so how do they explain the guy sitting in jail because, even though he went nowhere near the victim, he’d ended up covered in her blood. It wouldn’t have looked good on Byrnes cv.
                            Regards

                            Michael🔎


                            " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                            Comment


                            • Yeah I just can’t see this planting of blood suggestion. As we’ve said before How, seeing this type of murder and comparing it as they did to the ripper murders the Police must have been aware of the possibility of the killer striking again, so what if he had done and had been caught? He might even have confessed to killing Brown so how do they explain the guy sitting in jail because, even though he went nowhere near the victim, he’d ended up covered in her blood. It wouldn’t have looked good on Byrnes cv.

                              Couldn't say it any better, Mike.

                              Comment


                              • The Most Important Person In The Case ?


                                John R. Lee's name is mentioned only sparingly in the reportage covering the Brown Murder, Ali Trial, and
                                history of the East River Hotel murder.

                                Mr. Lee was a prominent contractor, primarily in Northern New Jersey, and based in Paterson.
                                Much of the road paving in Paterson, at that time, was supervised by Lee. He had a few run-ins with
                                city government like many men involved in building trades, notably after his return to Paterson in 1897.
                                Nevertheless, he was given glowing tributes following his death in Lima, Ohio and in Paterson after his body was returned to the 'Silk City' for burial



                                An argument could be made that printer George G. Damon, Police Inspector Thomas Byrnes, Asst. D.A. Francis Wellman, juror and broker Samuel Rutsky, East River Hotel habitue' Mary Miniter, Governor Benjamin Odell, or Dr. Austin Flint was the 'most important' individual out of the numerous important people we find in this case.

                                For what it's worth, I think it might have been John R. Lee. To Ameer Ben Ali, it certainly was.

                                The odds are that George Damon would have never come forward with the key to Room 31 had John R. Lee not convinced Damon to come forward in 1901, a move which contributed to
                                Ameer Ben Ali being released in 1902. No John Lee, then no release for Ali. Damon kept the key
                                in his wife's jewelry box for ten years before Lee approached him and told him he had recently chatted
                                with a prosecutor who in turn advised Lee's friend to take the key to the proper authorities,
                                something he should have done in the Spring of 1891 and not reduce the key to a novelty.. a
                                trinket accumulating dust on Anna Damon's bedroom bureau.


                                In an interview from 1901, Damon originally used Lee as an excuse for NOT coming forward, stating that he followed Lee's 'advice'. Damon did not elaborate on what sort of advice that may have been.
                                For all we know, Lee may have told him that he should turn the key in but expect repercussions for waiting so long. Damon, in turn, may have determined this as being a very good reason not to turn it in.

                                Lee lived in northern New York ( Rochester) in 1893 leaving that city to return to 225 Broadway Avenue in Paterson in late 1897 which probably meant Damon told him about the key prior to 1893 or sometime after late 1897.

                                As the story goes, John Lee was at a party with one or more of the prosecution attorneys, probably in 1900 or 1901 and for one reason or the other the topic turned to the Ali Trial.

                                Which attorney or attorneys were present is not known. I don't think attorney Francis Wellman was one of those present as he would go on to write two books in which the Brown murder/Ali trial are mentioned but not the revelation about the key being in Damon's possession. It was probably D.A.
                                De Lancey Nicoll, Asst. D.A. Simms or Asst. D.A. Lindsay.


                                Ameer Ben Ali may not have had much luck on his side at the time of the trial back in 1891....circumstantial evidence, his penchant for prevarication, and an unsavory track record, all contributory factors in his July 3rd conviction.....
                                .....but he certainly did one evening a decade later as serendipity struck when John Lee struck up a conversation with a member of the prosecution that ironically put Ali away in the first place which led to George Damon turning in the room key,
                                part of the reasoning behind Gov. Odell's commutation of his sentence and release in 1902.




                                You can't make this stuff up.


                                More in East River Echo Number 159 in April.

                                Comment

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